Maya lost - can it be true?

[OhHolyJesus]

I'm not saying it is true - Twitter isn't known for being wedded to truth...anyone able to shed light? I thought the verdict wasn't due for a while...

twitter.com/boysvswomen/status/1207379435684585474

Gutted. Only skimmed the judgement but it's total rubbish. Places great emphasis on that bloody Bench Book. 99% of the population are absolutist.
I feel sick and very frightened.
"Her belief is that a man is a person who, if everything is working, can produce sperm and a woman a person who, if everything is working, can produce eggs. This does not sit easily with her view that even if everything is not, in her words, “working”, and may never have done so, the person can still only be male or female.
The Claimant largely ignores intersex conditions and the fact that biological opinion is increasingly moving away from a absolutist approach to there being genes the presence or absence of which determine specific attributes, to understanding that it is necessary to analyse which genes are present, which are switched on, the extent to which they are switched on and the way in which they interact with other genes"
The man's an idiot.
Maya, whatever you need.

Sophocles, hear hear!

Maya has to appeal this. We will find the funds.

Fuck this shit.

I have met Clair Quentin incidentally, when Clair was David. David was talking about tax law and I didn't disagree with anything David said, but I intensely disliked David as David appeared to me to be an obvious bully.

One day, and I have a feeling now it may come sooner after December 12th, this insanity will be revealed for the Handmaid's Tale nightmare that this all is.

It's going to get much worse first.

So are all the trans people who recognise their birth sex, actually damaging themselves?

That bit made my jaw drop, too imnobody.

Science is moving away from humans being sexually dimorphic?

No. Not, it isn’t. And even if it was, a better understanding of disorders of sexual development has absolutely knack all to do with trans.

Really hoping there is a route to appeal this

The Claimant largely ignores intersex conditions and the fact that biological opinion is increasingly moving away from a absolutist approach to there being genes the presence or absence of which determine specific attributes, to understanding that it is necessary to analyse which genes are present, which are switched on, the extent to which they are switched on and the way in which they interact with other genes"

This is pretty much the argument that I had with 2 relatives both highly intelligent academic professors (in the humanities - wouldn't recognise science if it bit them). They genuinely seem to think that "but intersex!" is an argument that there really isn't male and female at all. and definitely think that science (not ideology) is now telling us there is a continuum of male to female. I left the room when one of them told me I was literally killing transpeople (so I could complete my bingo card).

Deeply shocked by this judgement. Let us know what you need Maya. Understand that this can’t be used as precedent, but I bet it will be. Truly we are in Gilead.

On the topic of Clair, I’m sure it’s been explained before, but I still don’t know how “trans non binary” can be a thing.

Identifying as trans means crossing from one part of a binary to the other but being non binary means being outside of that binary. So where is Clair?

This is fucking ridiculous. Are we still allowed to say that the Earth revolves round the sun? Or is that scientific fact unacceptable?

Maya has to appeal this. We will find the funds.

It would be very helpful if a legal person comments on whether a general appeal is plausible or irrelevant if it only applies to the specifics of Maya's case and not more generally.

I confess to being baffled by how readily science/fact is put aside in the obvious teeth of the reliance of the law upon it in other areas. Eg, as PP highlight, birth sex governs inheritance etc.

First - Maya you are an absolutely heroic woman. Behind you all the way. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

This judgement is straight from Gilead.

And - isn't 'woman' defined in EA2010 as 'a female of any age'? So according to this judge, the Equality Act isn't worthy of respect in a democratic society?

I've only read the excerpt of the judgment above, but if it all hinges on "treated for all purposes as the being of the sex to which they have transitioned", then doesn't this immediately set a precedent which means all statistical recording of trans people falls foul of the law?

So statistics of violence against trans people will cease to exist, because violence against a person with a GRC must be recorded as violence to a person of their target sex?

Similarly, transmen must be called for prostate cancer screening, and not for breast cancer screening, and vice versa. How can trans people continue to receive hormone treatment or any other medical treatment to support their transition, after getting a GRC, since this treatment would now be incompatible with the law?

That line in the judgment doesn't say "must be referred to as the sex to which they have transitioned", it says "treated... as".

I am wondering if a purely philosophical argument would've done better, with less vulnerability to the (crap) 'but intersex!' argument. This is the bit of law that protects your right to believe all kinds of things, some of which aren't only unscientific but overtly anti-scientific.

I also think he was trying to trap her with the 'she wouldn't consider she is wrong and is therefore an absolutist'. Had she said 'yes, I could be wrong but I don't think I am because x y z' he could then argue 'it's not a belief, it's an opinion based on the state of information available at the time', which are not protected.

Yes, seconding that - Maya, you are heroic.

X-posted with SpartacusAutisticus saying employment tribunals can't make case law.

Will still be interesting to see where the appeal goes.

Re Intersex I believe Maya summit quite a lot about the existence of DSDs in her argument. Did the Judge just not bother reading it then?

Eppur si muove. (And yet it moves...)

As Galileo said after being tried by the Inquisition.

*submitted

Thinking about it - am I the only one who thinks this sort of judgment and its phrasing are the sort of rhetoric we'd expect from Jolyon Maugham or Adam Wagner?

It's going to get much worse first

I can imagine that the next step will be a challenge to the exemptions in EA or in the GRA. I can't really see on what basis they can uphold the exemptions if judges are ruling that TW are actually women for all purposes and that people are not "entitled" to think otherwise. For exemptions to work there must be a belief that TW are male. It's so confusing!.

Can you imagine this judgment centuries ago?

The Claimant largely ignores the massive 1.7% of earth that isn't a perfect circle, and the fact that the opinion of some people that I have selectively chosen to support what I'm about to say, but am pretending they are the entire body of scientists is increasingly moving away from believing the world is a sphere, to understandig that the earth is flat.

I therefore rule against the Claimant's assertion and entire body of evidence that the world is a sphere. Because I'd get told off if I were to say otherwise and death threats from the LDKISHSGYTH+ lobby and I'm rather a coward.

Yours,

Tayler Swifty
Judge Apparently
they/whoever/whatever/switch on my genes why don't you

Re Intersex I believe Maya summit quite a lot about the existence of DSDs in her argument. Did the Judge just not bother reading it then?

She did. It was a comprehensive, measured, clear, respectful and cogent piece of writing. I can't believe that a judge read that, then listened to Quentin and the other sub-tumblr bullshit put forward, and came down against Maya.