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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya lost - can it be true?

729 replies

OhHolyJesus · 18/12/2019 19:38

I'm not saying it is true - Twitter isn't known for being wedded to truth...anyone able to shed light? I thought the verdict wasn't due for a while...

twitter.com/boysvswomen/status/1207379435684585474

OP posts:
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7
PencilsInSpace · 19/12/2019 00:15

89. When in an, admittedly very bitter, dispute with Gregor Murray, who alleged that they had been misgendered by the Claimant, rather than seeking to accommodate Gregor Murrays legitimate wishes she stated: “I had simply forgotten that this man demands to be referred to by the plural pronouns “they” and “them”, “Murray also calls it “transphobic” that I recognise a man when I see one. I disagree”, “In reality Murray is a man. It is Murray’s right to believe that Murray is not a man, but Murray cannot compel others to believe this.” and that “I reserve the right to use the pronouns “he” and “him” to refer to male people. While I may choose to use alternative pronouns as a courtesy, no one has the right to compel others to make statements they do not believe.”

90. I conclude from this, and the totality of the evidence, that the Claimant is absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment. The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.

Maya lost - can it be true?
SetYourselfOnFire · 19/12/2019 00:19

Refresh my memory--which TRA bragged they had judges in their pocket?

JanesKettle · 19/12/2019 00:21

What the judgement says is 'women are not worthy of respect in a democratic society'.

But hey, ho, it's what the pinned post above us says too.

This sort of capitulation led the way.

All of it can be boiled down into those words - women, we do not respect you. We'll pretend to respect you, so long as you serve us, but that's it. Illusion only.

AnyOldPrion · 19/12/2019 00:24

The nonsense regarding the outlawing of the word transsexual is another concern. That is a word that allows us to define how far a person has gone in their transition. So it must be silenced as we are not to be allowed to make that distinction.

JanesKettle · 19/12/2019 00:28

AutumnRose1

I live in AU - we've got a Pentacostal for PM, and the religious discrimination laws have just been rejigged in favour of the religious. I could hold to and speak about material reality in many religious places in AU, and not lose employment.

How desperately ironic that the place of original Inquisition can become a (deeply problematic) place of refuge for freedom from compelled speech.

smileylottie87 · 19/12/2019 00:32

@JellySlice phew! I agree, the lack of logic in the conclusions drawn, misrepresentation of Maya's words and the law definitely don't help! Hopefully all of the incongruences in his ruling will be a good basis for an appeal should Maya choose to

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 19/12/2019 00:39

90. I conclude from this, and the totality of the evidence, that the Claimant is absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment. The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.

But someone losing their job or being forced to lie or use pronouns they do not believe to be accurate (compelled speech) is LESS intimidating?

So - let me get this straight - Judge James Tayler thinks that Maya saying she reserves the right to use sex based pronouns (though will use preferred pronouns as a courtesy in most situations) is 'intimidating and hostile'

BUT that women being forced to lie, forced to use gender based pronouns against their will and losing their jobs for belief in scientific reality is LESS hostile or intimidating?

His judgement is hostile and intimidating for 51% of the population.

Somehow, despite the fact that TWAW, he seems to make the distinction about who it's ok to to be hostile and intimidating to, who you can fire with impunity, who you can force to lie, whose rights you can strip away to nothing.

HandsOffMyRights · 19/12/2019 00:43

More coverage

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/18/judge-rules-against-charity-worker-who-lost-job-over-transgender-tweets

I went to sleep for an hour. Woke up with a feeling of dread and gloom. How can any of us sleep soundly knowing the rot is setting? When will the rest of society cotton on to what this judgement means?

I'm gutted by this, but then I think of all that the Suffragettes went through, everything that was slung at them - designed to defeat them, to crush their spirit, to stop them reaching their goal - it makes me even more determined to fight for our rights.

Maya lost - can it be true?
JellySlice · 19/12/2019 00:47

We got 100 years of society being forced to consider us as human;

Less than that. Women were only legally recognised as 'persons' 90 years ago. In Canada, where they are once again struggling to recognise women as equal people.

JanesKettle · 19/12/2019 00:54

Less than a fucking century.

Women need their own nation-state, and they need an army to defend its borders.

I don't give a shit that the above sounds insane. It's true.

ThePurported · 19/12/2019 00:58

Gregor Murrays legitimate wishes

What, to be referred to in the plural? Is that the law now?

2BthatUnnoticed · 19/12/2019 01:01

But Maya does use preferred pronouns when speaking to particular individuals, no? So the ruling seems to imply that you must use those pronouns even in the absence of the relevant person.

So how can we discuss sexism or sex-based issues, when they happen to involve certain persons.

When I discuss racism with family and friends (many of us not white), we sometimes refer to people as “white.” If we had to now refer to them as “People of Colour,” it would make it hard and confusing to discuss our experiences of racism.

I’d have to assume that those with more institutional power in society wished to suppress our ability to discuss our own oppression.

ahagwearsapointySantahat · 19/12/2019 01:04

The whole thing is full of utterly illogical gibberish, and it doesn't seem to make any sense from a legal point of view either.

Just one example, which jumped out at me - the sections about Murray:

89. When in an, admittedly very bitter, dispute with Gregor Murray, who alleged that they had been misgendered by the Claimant, rather than seeking to accommodate Gregor Murrays legitimate wishes she stated: “I had simply forgotten that this man demands to be referred to by the plural pronouns “they” and “them”, “Murray also calls it “transphobic” that I recognise a man when I see one. I disagree”, “In reality Murray is a man. It is Murray’s right to believe that Murray is not a man, but Murray cannot compel others to believe this.” and that “I reserve the right to use the pronouns “he” and “him” to refer to male people. While I may choose to use alternative pronouns as a courtesy, no one has the right to compel others to make statements they do not believe.”

90. I conclude from this, and the totality of the evidence, that the Claimant is absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment. The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.

This makes no sense to me, as the main points the judge seemed to be trying to make elsewhere were that if someone transitions and becomes legally the opposite "gender", it would be violating their dignity not to address them as such, etc. But as I understand it (please correct me if wrong!), Murray does not identify as a woman, nor have a GRC, but identifies as non-binary - which is not recognised in law. So presumably, in any legal sense (as well as biological), whether Murray likes it or not, it is correct to call Murray a man. I don't see how anyone could be justifiably forced to call Murray anything else just because M wants them to, or how a legal fact can be considered to violate someone's dignity? If this is one of the justifications for the ruling, it seems to me to be on very shaky ground.

(I also wonder how much the judge knew about Murray when ruling that it was a violation of M's dignity or "creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment" to describe Murray as what Murray legally is, as Murray seems no stranger to creating offensive environments for others)
www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/woman-who-received-abuse-from-dundee-councillor-gregor-murray-speaks-out/

JanesKettle · 19/12/2019 01:23

Murray is clearly male, he is clearly a man.

He is a man who likes to exert power over women.

The judge is a man, who also likes to exert power over women.

No woman should be forced out of fear to deny the above.

ThePurported · 19/12/2019 01:23

So how can we discuss sexism or sex-based issues, when they happen to involve certain persons.

Quite. Remember, Maya talked about these issues as a response to the public consultation on the GRA reform. What was she supposed to do - stay quiet or come up with some pretend reason why she and all of us were concerned about self id?
If we're forced to say 'yes of course I believe that Greg is a woman, but I don't think she should be allowed in women's spaces', it kind of dilutes the argument!

MyMajesty · 19/12/2019 01:32

Well, of course the argument is diluted and we should recognise the obvious need for us to stop confusing the issue and just shut up.

Antibles · 19/12/2019 01:33

Appalling, I hope Maya can appeal.

It's about harnessing language to pursue power not truth. So 1984.

2BthatUnnoticed · 19/12/2019 01:37

Gregor calls women T*F and c*t but for women to use “he” rather than “they” when describing Gregor is a hostile act?

WTF!

theflushedzebra · 19/12/2019 01:56

Gregor the one who faced a standards hearing on Wednesday over claims of abusive messages on social media, and so left the SNPP and accused them of transphobia? That Gregor Murray.

Gregor Murray who calls women cunts on twitter - that Gregor Murray - is quoted as a wounded party in this case? Astounding.

theflushedzebra · 19/12/2019 01:57

Sorry, the "on Wednesday" bit is because I c&p from a news article. www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/891789/exclusive-dundee-councillor-gregor-murray-quits-snp-over-partys-institutional-transphobia/

JanesKettle · 19/12/2019 02:14

The law protects abusive men.

Any woman who's been in Family Court knows this.

Protecting Murray's 'dignity' at the expense of Maya's is just more of the same insititutional sanctioning of abuse of women and girls.

TheCatsServant · 19/12/2019 02:31

God I'm shocked to read this utterly depressing, infuriating and gobsmacking outcome. What a surprise to hear the judge was a man. 🙄 Poor brave Maya and poor all women. I hope she can appeal. The fight continues.

Datun · 19/12/2019 02:53

This judge is completely incoherent. As others have said, holes, contradictions and inconsistencies characterise everything he has said.

He is spouting TRA rhetoric. And we know it doesn't hold up.

Additionally, between now and Maya's appeal, (I'm assuming she is appealing) the media will get hold of it. They are already pricking up their ears generally about the issue, unafraid and challenging. This ruling will be catnip.

Bring it on.

Datun · 19/12/2019 02:53

💐❤️💪 Maya. Strength and love.

NotBadConsidering · 19/12/2019 03:32

At least @MNHQ can now argue their trans moderation policy has a Judge’s backing Hmm Angry

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