Times leader: The Gender Trap

[Burru]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-the-risks-of-gender-self-identification-the-gender-trap-bmb3r00vn?shareToken=3eb564c267dc646c823cbcadc74c2462

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Yes, The Times has excellent coverage, the articles that have been linked here have been superb.

I just got round to reading the article. They say that both Labour and the Tories support the 'status quo' as far as the GRA is concerned:

It should also be noted that it was the Tories who originally proposed writing self-ID into law, although their manifesto now supports the status quo. Similarly, although Labour’s 2017 manifesto supported self-ID, as does Jeremy Corbyn personally, the party’s present manifesto also backs the status quo.

But this is what the Labour manifesto says about the GRA (on page 68):

Labour is committed to reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to introduce self-declaration for transgender people

labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf

Can I ask a stupid question? What is the clownfish reference that I keep seeing?

There is something really concerning about how all of the media are isolating off the issue of women's rights vs trans rights as somehow only a Lib Dem issue.

Yes. To the extent that the Times has misrepresented the Labour position on self-ID, saying it's not in their current manifesto, when it is.

I've found it's much harder to talk about this to left leaning Americans because they're mostly in a sort of tribalistic bunker mentality at the moment, partly due to Trump. The UK seems to be the vanguard of the fightback and I suspect that what happens in the UK will have ripples internationally.

This comment in the Times was brilliantly succinct:

"As I am currently engaged in the unamusing process of trying to get a mortgage or loan to expand my property business, I can at least amuse myself by thinking that it would be easier to self-certify my gender than my income."

What is the clownfish reference that I keep seeing?

Clownfish can change sex.

Bovary clownfish have been somewhat incoherently used for years as a justification that sex isn't binary, as they change sex or something. The fact that humans aren't clownfish never seems to register.

All the lefty Canadians I know are firmly opposed to self ID, but that's partly self selection in terms of who I gravitate towards and partly Yaniv starting to hit the news. The CBC seems to be even more firmly committed to stifling dissent than the BBC has been.

Bovary clownfish have been somewhat incoherently used for years as a justification that sex isn't binary, as they change sex or something. The fact that humans aren't clownfish never seems to register

How utterly bloody ludicrous! The incoherence of their position is beyond parody.....

You might think they'd try to pick something within the same genus, except that oops, there aren't any.

Like seriously, sometimes I'm tempted to just respond with "you realize that humans are mammals, right?"

TimeLady posted a brilliant link to an article by Stephen Whittle about the GRA and he seemed to be seriously arguing that prior to the 18th century, two distinct sexes didn’t exist....

Indeed, nobody knew what sex anyone was until the Victorians. It's amazing that they ever managed to get babby formed really.

Bovary have you run across Jane Clare Jones' masterpiece 'The T*rf Wars'? It's rather good. It definitely includes examples of the 'because clownfish' debate.

Like seriously, sometimes I'm tempted to just respond with "you realize that humans are mammals, right?”

It truly is parallel universe stuff. I still can’t quite comprehend how this has been going on for years while most people have absolutely no idea this lobby even exists. I didn’t until a few months ago. This forum and its knowledgeable posters have really provided a great education. A lot of it is astounding. I don’t think this agenda has any popular support but this lobby has colonized so many institutions. By stealth

Bovary have you run across Jane Clare Jones' masterpiece 'The T*rf Wars'? It's rather good. It definitely includes examples of the 'because clownfish' debate

No, I will check that out, thank you Michelle. Clownfish. It’s barking mad!

It feels like being trapped in a Philip K Dick novel at times.

I thought no one could top the clownfish nonsense, but then PC Gul came along to educate Harry Miller about the incidence of male body parts growing out of ladybrains.

Can I suggest reading the Annals of Terf Wars in tandem with this by Julie Bindel unherd.com/2019/04/the-transsexual-empire/

TimeLady posted a brilliant link to an article by Stephen Whittle about the GRA and he seemed to be seriously arguing that prior to the 18th century, two distinct sexes didn’t exist....

In a similar vein, it is argued that homosexuality didn't exist until a similar time period.

It's this school of thought that naming or classifying something is what brings it into existence.
It's why they claim science, biological sex and homosexuality are colonial / capitalist constructs that should be deconstructed so we can all live in queer paradise.

It truly is parallel universe stuff. I still can’t quite comprehend how this has been going on for years while most people have absolutely no idea this lobby even exists. I didn’t until a few months ago.

In the spirit of silver linings, it has been rather joyful watching you peak umpteen times on here over the course of the last few months!

I hate to tell you, but you're honestly not that far up from base camp!

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

It's a gem.

In the spirit of silver linings, it has been rather joyful watching you peak umpteen times on here over the course of the last few months! I hate to tell you, but you're honestly not that far up from base camp!

Lang, that’s really made me laugh! It’s true as well!

Bovary there is a bit about the Clownfish discussion on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3616759-Alice-Roberts-what-the-hell?pg=26

I liked Grimbles comment of 'So I guess Alice also believes humans can regrow their limbs, because Axolotls?'

and the earlier comment by Dreichdrizzle 'Somebody has suggested that bringing up clownfish in a discussion about the immutability of sex should be called Nemo’s law'

In a similar vein, it is argued that homosexuality didn't exist until a similar time period

Seriously? What about Ancient Greece and Rome?

It’s this school of thought that naming or classifying something brings it into existence

That’s really interesting. Because in TimeLady’s link to Whittle’s piece on the GRA, he seems to think by replacing sex with gender, biological sex will cease to exist. It’s a refusal to recognize external reality.