Times leader: The Gender Trap

[Burru]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-the-risks-of-gender-self-identification-the-gender-trap-bmb3r00vn?shareToken=3eb564c267dc646c823cbcadc74c2462

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Prize for Missing the Point goes to the one saying 'Transgender girls in girls school toilets, why is that really a problem?

They are boys who have been told that humans can change sex, and they are now in girls' spaces making girls uncomfortable. Why would anyone want to encourage that?

That comment is awful.

Most trans girls would give part of their anatomy to suffer the pain and inconvenience of the monthly.'

This kind of comment pisses me right off. Some of the pain of being female - such a being paid less or providing unpaid care to others - is only tangentially linked to our biology. Step right in and try on some of that pain, oh please do.

Prize for Missing the Point goes to the one saying 'Transgender girls in girls school toilets, why is that really a problem? Most trans girls would give part of their anatomy to suffer the pain and inconvenience of the monthly.'

Gender dysphoria is a rejection of masculinity, anatomy, etc.

Wanting periods is a fetish.

I don't want to fall into the we should let the right ones in and this is who they are trap, but just to illustrate the difference, look at the video chat between Blaire White and Yaniv where Yaniv started waving first a pad and then a tampon around. Blaire has been very consistent about pointing out that transwomen can't menstruate. Not in an "ew that's disgusting" misogynistic way and not in an I'm so sad and envious way, just they can't because they're male and don't have any of the related anatomy. Blaire clearly thinks that pretending that they do is ridiculous. That's gender dysphoria - doesn't want to be a man, wants to look like a woman. Yaniv, otoh, has the most obvious menstruation fetish in the history of obviousness.

Again, I'm not arguing the "this is the good kind of trans person and this is the bad kind of trans person and the good kind are women really, somehow" case, what I'm saying is that these are two very different sets of people and the difference honestly could not be more obvious, so it's odd that a. there's a social taboo about pointing it out that's currently enforced by most social media platforms via policy and b. Stonewall, for example, wants both groups to be treated in law as if they were exactly the same, which benefits only one of the groups, and it's not the one who women are likely to be more comfortable around.

So, the be clear, and a the risk of the ever present begone foul free thought hammer - I disagree with the idea that males who have gender dysphoria can become female, but asking women to pretend that that's exactly the same thing as having a fetish is gaslighting. Most women who have until now been on team I'm fine sharing spaces with transwomen think they're agreeing to share those spaces with people with gender dysphoria. If they're instead being asked to share those spaces with people with fetishes that revolve around women's bodies and bodily functions then that matters hugely, and it something that needs to be openly acknowledged and discussed before social policy is put in place, because what's being asked of us in those two scenarios is fundamentally different. Up until now that hasn't happened, and the fact that many groups are actively trying to prevent it from happening should lead to the question of why they're doing so and who benefits from that.

This remains true even if you personally are on team no mixed sex spaces ever, because manipulating people into agreeing to something under false pretenses is wrong. And that's exactly what's been happening.

If they're instead being asked to share those spaces with people with fetishes that revolve around women's bodies and bodily functions then that matters hugely,

The right of women to get undressed/toilet without their physical selves being used as objects by male born people either as fetish stimulus or as physical/visual validation of a personal belief is one of the worst outrages of this. It regards females as inhuman props, to be used by males, with no right of privacy, dignity or refusal to be used by any male who wishes to, for whatever purpose that male may have.

Fuck. That. This is extremist misogyny on crack.

Excellent post TotallyFuckedUpFamily
I am utterly sick of the "most vulnerable group in society" trope too.
Through my work we occasionally have dealings with a woman in her 30's with very severe learning difficulties, needing all care.
Her parents have died and she has no family. She lives in a council care home. When she attends my department she is always accompanied by very loving carers. Really those women are saints. Before any procedure there are always "best interests" discussions etc.
How vulnerable is she to any change in council/government policies, the arrival of new, less caring carers. Maybe even the enactment of euthanasia laws if they were brought in.
Her vulnerability is different to the dangers your own daughter faces. But I suggest people like this are an awful lot more vulnerable than your average trans person.

Again, what would the motivation be for this bait and switch? The "who benefits" approach is always useful. Who benefits from women not knowing about the fetish element of this issue?

(and anyone wittering at me about how vulnerable and sad that male born person is, and that my providing my physical self for their use is some kind of justice or support for that male born person..... is even more misogyny on crack.)

The vulnerability sacred cow needs challenging, every time it appears. It's thrown into articles like this as a quick virtue signal. It's the 'I'm not a bad person but.....'. Asking questions does not make you a bad person. Basing your beliefs on reality and fact does not make you a bad person. Disagreeing with someone and having boundaries even if it upsets them, does not make you a bad person.

The most vulnerable members of society are poor children and poor elderly people. Within those groups, the women and girls are more vulnerable than the men and boys.

Healthy young males are not the most vulnerable group by any definition.

When did we forget that elderly people are vulnerable? At a certain point they are mostly or entirely dependent on others for everything from food to day to day medical care. Every winter some elderly people are in danger of dying as a result of having to make the choice between buying food and paying to heat their homes.

To claim that, say, a young transwoman who works in IT is more vulnerable than that is absurd.

There are names in the comments on that article that I've never seen before. Is the tide turning? It certainly feels like it, though there's still a very long way to go.

You're spot on TheProdigalKittensReturn.
Jenni Russell's brilliant article the other week generated many many hundreds of comments from men and women who I've never seen comment before (as did Janice Turner's this weekend). There's been a complete sea change in people's understanding about the level of abuse and silencing that's happening, free speech, safeguarding etc. Share taken below for anyone interested:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/politicians-are-betraying-women-in-the-rush-to-support-trans-rights-xzvhcf7m8?shareToken=7065ef40c61cebc0b8fac9e6df1592ef

Uncompromising

Thank you for the link to that excellent article. It’s just extraordinary that this is happening and the level of intimidation, bullying and vitriolic abuse is confirms the totalitarian impulses of this lobby. The Times is impressive on this issue, other media sources have been on mute for too long. I have no idea what the upshot of the election will be, but I really hope that whoever wins, the media will continue to report on this relentless attack on freedom of speech and the misogyny and regressive gender stereotyping which seems to motivate it.

As well as unexpectedly inserting penis into conversations, I'm now also mentioning fetishes these days, and it's often met with astonishment.

Hi, as someone in the USA watching this issue coming up in your general election with great interest I am curious about the media there.
The times has had some
Great coverage and occasionally the bbc or guardian will have something.

Is the times considered right wing media in the UK? Or centrist? Left wing?

The best left wing pub in the us for this issue is The Atlantic in that they will allow some coverage of both sides. However the vast majority of press we get over here is evangelical Christian Right wing which is not at all helpful to convincing my left wing colleagues and friends to take it seriously.

I've traditionally been rather blase about most fetishes so I think it's been a bit of a shock to some for me to be firmly opposed to this one. The reason for that is that there's no other fetish that I might be forced to participate in by the government.

I'd call The Times centrist to slightly right in UK terms. The UK's center tends to be further left than the US center. The Telegraph is more right, The Guardian more left.

How are middle aged males who work in IT, the most vulnerable people in society?

My children are looking at me, with my newfound vocabulary, in a completely new light these days

I've never read or said penis so much in all my life! It's great to see so much coverage on and in different media formats. Maybe this should become known as 'the Jo effect'. Cheers Jo, and thanks The Times.

I am curious about the media there
FWR
The Telegraph is old school Conservative, The Times is centre right, The Guardian is left wing. TV news, IMO, is dominated by left wing opinion. There is absolutely nothing like Fox. Sky has a revolving cabaret of Guardian columnists. The left wing media often avoid reporting news which is problematic for its agenda. The Guardian is appalling for that and is so politically biased, I don’t bother reading it at all anymore. The Spectator is right wing and its coverage of this issue has been excellent. James Kirkup has done superb analysis of the lobby group’s tactics.

Thanks prodigal

Great progress on this issue from a feminist perspective in the UK, I’m very pleased to see the daylight

US is so polarized on everything rn. Even a lot of scientists I know have been nodding along to clownfish arguments because those arguments come from the right sort rather than the dark side. Hard to even know where to start...

There is something really concerning about how all of the media are isolating off the issue of women's rights vs trans rights as somehow only a Lib Dem issue.

It is totally to point the finger at Jo Swinson and not the 2 main parties, one of which will be forming the next government as from this friday.

It is beginning to look like at active tactic to isolate it off as something only a fringe group is proposing.

If the Times is really serious (and despite the number of article is it?) they would be phrasing this as an immediate concern because both Tory and Labour are committed to reforming the GRA. Labour in fact wants to make misgendering a hate crime.

There is no time for this dilettante pondering by the Times. It is happening here and now.

When either the Tory or Labour Government early in 2020 starts the reforms they have obviously promised to the Stonewall lobby machine, where will the Times be then.

Doing too little too late.

If they really cared about the issue, and weren't just using it to say look how silly the Lib Dems are, they would be challenging the 2 main parties as of now.

We should not let ourselves be bought off by this tokenistic misdirection. Looks more and more like this is being done to allow GRA plans to go ahead while we all jump up and down in orchestrated unions pointing fingers at the Lib Dems - the least relevant party.