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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jo Swinson on Today programme now!!

131 replies

Taswama · 09/12/2019 07:15

Tying herself in knots. Great interviewer.

OP posts:
WorkingItOutAsIGo · 09/12/2019 10:04

I just had to come hear and say well done to Justin. He had clearly read up on the issues and his questioning was thorough and detailed.

I literally cannot believe we are getting light shone into this issue like this at last. Thanks Jo!!

ItsChristmaaaaaaaaas · 09/12/2019 10:04

'Here comes the science bit...'

nauticant · 09/12/2019 10:11

So it's #nodebate and all questions are transphobic.

Yes, and that comes across in the interviews she does. You can hear in what she says "how dare you ask that question you bigot?"

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 09/12/2019 10:14

Has Jeremy Corbyn been interrogated on this issue? And Boris?

Corbyn would evade and refuse to answer the question. Boris would say that of course biological sex exists, and then make it impossible to ask any follow up questions by pretending to be, or possibly actually being, too thick to understand anything that was being asked.

(To be fair, the things being asked wouldn't make sense because nothing about this ideology does, but given its current relevance leaders should be expected to have answers ready.)

LangCleg · 09/12/2019 10:18

'Vulnerable Adults' are already a defined group with specific protections in law and public bodies are required to have policies and procedures in place to accommodate this group.

Absolutely this. A summary of the legislation:

www.anncrafttrust.org/resources/safeguarding-adults-legislation/

I very much doubt that this somewhat misleading use of a term that has specific meaning in law by Swinson is accidental.

theflushedzebra · 09/12/2019 10:21

I honestly don't know how they've managed to swing it into public understanding that trans people (and let's face it, they mean transwomen) are the most vulnerable in society.

It quite simply isn't true. The argument that male bodied people are more physically vulnerable than women and children is quite simply a nonsense.

I would like to ask Jo Swinson about the male children of mothers who are victim to dv. At present, they are not allowed in women's refuges past a certain age - precisely because their maleness could be a trigger to vulnerable women who are recovering from male violence.

It's understandable why this rule exists - but it does actually leave some abused mothers of boys vulnerable, not wanting to leave their teen sons with an abusive man, while they escape to a refuge. I think most people would understand that these boys themselves would be vulnerable too - growing up in a household with dv.

Young vulnerable male children are not allowed in - but male bodied people are allowed in, just because they identify as women? Madness.

BovaryX · 09/12/2019 10:23

TimeLady posted a link which gives a fascinating insight into how and why biological sex has been displaced and I wrote a post about it. Here’s the link if anyone is interested
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3764045-Why-biological-sex-was-silenced

Justhadathought · 09/12/2019 10:30

Why does power remain concentrated in the hands of men?
And why do the problems of sexism sometimes feel just too big to solve

The forward to Jo Swinson's book 'Equal Power'.......

She is big on talking about the idea of 'Equality' ( as are all Liberals) without doing the necessary analysis of the roots of inequality in the facts and consequences of biology - and how the sexes have been viewed and valued as a result.

catspyjamas123 · 09/12/2019 12:16

Lib Dems: Party of Cyril Smith.

MForstater · 09/12/2019 13:19

I have published the transcript of this and some notes over here:

medium.com/@MForstater/believing-six-impossible-things-before-breakfast-jo-swinson-on-the-today-programme-2770d5e091cf

Goosefoot · 09/12/2019 13:21

I think she keeps repeating the business about a possible lesbian abuser because it isn't supposed to be about lesbians being particularly at a high risk for domestic violence, that's not her underlying assumption or what she's trying to say.
As I understand people saying this, the point is that there are various individuals who could be a risk to the women in the refuge, so it's necessary to risk assess on an individual basis anyway, and it doesn't justify discrimination about a whole class of people. There s some level of truth to that, soI suspect it seems plausible in itself to quite a few people. Most people in our society have been given the message, often quite heavily, that we don't restrict groups based on the actions of individuals. Even a lot of individuals.

But there are also other reasons to have sex segregated spaces in a society, as important as the risk of violence, in some cases those are the most relevant reasons. In refuges the fact of the individuals there having fear responses to all men is very pertinent, and it makes no claim about those men being a personal danger. (And yes, presumably an abused lesbian might have a negative response to some or even many women, and that would be a hard situation that might mean a shelter wouldn't work for her.) And then there is simply the question of privacy, which the vast majority of people do have a sense of, often quite a strongly.
But here's the thing, if you have already accepted the idea that male and female aren't "real" categories, then you will see those responses as social constructs, and ones that could be removed through reeducation.

I think that while the risk issue is often the easiest to present to people, and often quite convincing, it's also going to be important to find effective ways to talk about things like privacy. We tend to shy away from it, because I think we fear it will seem prudish, or because we know there are varying cultural standards, or because it is a more complex and nuanced idea.

BadgertheBodger · 09/12/2019 13:30

Maya thank you. God she looks even more of an idiot when you see it written down

noodlenosefraggle · 09/12/2019 13:35

Justin missed the point that if any male person can say he's trans, a loophole a mile wide has been opened up for sexual predators.
He did point out to her that 1 in 50 sex offenders in prison have identified as trans women, implying that they are using trans ideology to access women. She just chose not to address it.

noodlenosefraggle · 09/12/2019 13:41

I happened to switch on 5 live when she was talking about encouraging girls into sport. I was dying for someone to ask her what she thought the effect would be on competitive female sports of Male bodied trans athletes making it virtually impossible for females to win, or on teenaged girls participation in sports when teenagers will be forced to undress in front of someone with Male genitalia.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2019 13:41

Thanks Maya!

Longtalljosie · 09/12/2019 13:50

@RoyalCorgi at least 4th. Andrew Neil raised it when he was doing a head to head with her and Ed Davey when they were both going for the leadership. When he began on the issue she literally rolled her eyes.

Cwenthryth · 09/12/2019 14:04

As I understand people saying this, the point is that there are various individuals who could be a risk to the women in the refuge, so it's necessary to risk assess on an individual basis anyway, and it doesn't justify discrimination about a whole class of people. There s some level of truth to that, soI suspect it seems plausible in itself to quite a few people. Most people in our society have been given the message, often quite heavily, that we don't restrict groups based on the actions of individuals. Even a lot of individuals.

The issue here is that the threat to women in a refuge doesn’t just come from specific individuals who have a history of violence against them - it comes from being re-traumatised psychologically being in the presence of males. Any males. Even lovely ones. Even ones that identify as women.

Jo Swinson does not understand male violence against women, trauma, or what refuges are.

Cwenthryth · 09/12/2019 14:06

When did Emily Maitlis interview Swinson on this? I know she interviewed Dr(!) Sarah Wollaston who apparently believes babies are assigned genders.

SentimentalKiller · 09/12/2019 14:19

I think the comment he made about being able to harm her with his male body was a way of pointing out TW are male without actually saying it.
Nobody dare say it out loud

MockersFactCheckMN · 09/12/2019 14:34

And Boris?

"Do I know what a woman is? Fwaarrr! Raaaath-errr!"

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 09/12/2019 14:38

It seems to be a miracle that JS had a child given it's all about feelings and biological sex doesn't exist. Imagine the surprise when her belly started to swell, who could have known that would happen?! Perhaps they were expecting the other parent to get pregnant. After all, she and her co-parent (could be woman or man as it's not about biology, not going to assume) were only assigned a gender at birth. And she is leader of a political party so, you know, an historically male job, with statistically overwhelmingly men doing it.

It's a miracle! How surprised everyone must have been!

Or not, because whether they admit it or not everyone knows that there are two sexes and which humans belong to which sex.

Datun · 09/12/2019 14:46

People have only just starting to ask these questions. It's infuriating, to me anyway, that they don't always ask the exact right ones. But this is new for them.

They will end up asking exactly the right questions.

Cross dressing men who get aroused by wearing bras, for instance? Are they, according to Jo Swinson, legitimate women? The same women as my 13-year-old daughter trying on the same teen bra?

Is Ian Huntley a woman? If he says so? And if he isn't, how come?

dayoftheclownfish · 09/12/2019 14:52

Swinson's smears of lesbians as 'more violent' are also infuriating because of the regressive and homophobic idea that being attracted to a woman means you are a man. It's a conflation of sex and sexuality that is incredibly outdated.

borntobequiet · 09/12/2019 16:11

I've called LDHQ to express my disgust, as a longtime supporter and party member (no more). Also emailed the Today prog to say well done.

ThePurported · 09/12/2019 16:26

Cross dressing men who get aroused by wearing bras, for instance? Are they, according to Jo Swinson, legitimate women? The same women as my 13-year-old daughter trying on the same teen bra?

^This. They are also 'transwomen' if they decide to call themselves that, and many do.
I'm sick of the euphemisms 'male-bodied' and 'persons with a penis'. We're talking about men. If they weren't men, there wouldn't be any need for this debate.

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