I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

[OkayOkay1]

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

It's good to hear you are generally a very empathic person, OP. Are you feeling upset for CJ's ex-wife and children. They've been through such a lot, haven't they? They've suffered terribly. They've had to be very brave, and when they were young people. And they're surrounded by such hate-filled people saying their experience is invalid. And they didn't choose it, unlike their father. Most of all, funnily enough 'they've lost family through it' (their father, Bruce, whom they miss). And they are the wealthy, privileged ones. Are you wringing your hands, or educating yourself about the collateral damage in these families? The low-income families where women are left to bring up traumatized living-bereaved children who've lost a father to this? The children in states of damage and trauma who can't talk about it, due to the hate-filled bigots all around. Maybe, if you are so caring, you should focus on that group rather than a privileged man who opted to do this. Seems a very strange place for a sympathetic person to spend their energies. The Transwidows thread will show you a very different slice of life.

I think it's unfair to be attacking the OP.
Anyone who didn't want to respond and explain didn't have to do it.
The title of the post, and the OP's point of view, could attract interest from others who have previously not looked into this topic.
Why would posters not be happy to at least direct them to other threads which might help them to understand?
(Clearly, not all posters)

I don’t know whether to post this Okayokay1 because you said you were going to hide this thread.

Just in case you do look again, I think you have shown what lots of us experience which is trying to get the balance right between support for for one individual and how to look after the interests of the majority.

I don’t watch I’m a celebrity (I can’t bear the insects and seeing people being upset) but I do know lots of people have been feeling like you about Caitlyn Jenner. The format means the public see a different more vulnerable and often a kinder side of contestants. It often works for celebrities who may be slightly controversial, like Stanley Johnson or my personal favourite Anne Hegarty.

Caitlyn has been widely welcomed by the media since her transition - like the Vogue Cover or being named Woman of the Year. There are so many awards so why should this one matter? I personally find Celebrity Mum of the Year completely silly as the nominees clearly don’t have the financial challenges of combining work and family life but at least it sends out a positive message about women being able to have a public role. This award was given so soon after Caitlyn’s transition. By contrast, I personally would not have object at all if, for example, a trans woman who had a lifetime of campaigning for girls’ education was awarded it.

Caitlyn is part of Hollywood which gives her huge privileges, plus she was a successful athlete. However, women who have experienced domestic violence, who live in poverty etc rarely get feted. Caitlyn won’t be going to a women’s refuge where funding is a constant struggle and where they can’t help all the women they want for financial reasons. A huge proportion of women in prison have experienced violence against them or being coerced by men. These women are already vulnerable. Many men in prison have committed horrible crimes. They may have sincere reasons for wanting to transition but how do we know they have become repentant people who want nothing more than to sit doing manicures and embroidery? That’s why I want to see women’s sex based rights continue and accept that a few individuals may not be able to do all they want for the collective good.

You have hit on a real dilemma OkayOkay1. I thought you did a good thing by expressing it and hope you will come back to this board.

Feminism is not a religion. It does not seek converts, it does not love bomb everyone who comes along to convince them that Feminists are nice and kind, it does not baby women by spoon feeding them and patronizing them.

If you need Feminists to hand you step by step instructions on how to get to the place where the plight of rich white men is obviously of less importance to feminists than the vast numbers of oppressed women and girls, and they do not provide those instructions, do not expect them to be running after you if you are offended by not being treated with the cossetting you required.

Feminists are real women. Some of us are pussycats. Some of us are tigers. We have great strengths and weaknesses because we are humans. We have spent lifetimes being conditioned to put other's needs before our own, and many of us have discovered the importance of responsibility in researching and thinking about the oppression of the female sex, so that as a class we can rise together.

But we don't do it by treating each other like children. If the subjugation of women, including yourself, isn't important to you, then why would you expect other women to lead you to a place where it becomes so?

Translated = this thread didn't go the way I thought it would and I'm flouncing. Playground equivalent of taking your ball back as your team is losing

Absolutely

I read posts on here and think ‘goodness....i do not like the way they said THAT’

But there is virtually always a nugget of agreement at least

The vast majority of posts on here (before the flounce) were perfectly polite to the OP albeit angry at the situation and its fine to be angry...we need more angry, its only through angry that stuff gets changed

Strikes me as interesting.

People say something insensitive or provoking to GC women. GC women irritably point out the issues and why they are issues, and some get a bit short about it. On a moderated forum. People make hurt noises and flounce. (Or occasionally throw a dead cat and flounce with a few commands about DIAF.) Worries are expressed that maybe GC women getting irritated is not nice and those women misbehaved. Even the ones with very good reason for getting irritated.

People say something insensitive or provoking to TRA political lobby. TRAs tear them to shreds on unmoderated places. Threats to tell employers, personal attacks, no issues there at all about are they putting it nicely and considerately enough. People frantically apologise, apologise some more, swear they've learned their lesson, agree desperately with everything, absolutely everything, just please accept the apology and they'll never, never do it again. TRA behaviour is considered justified if they felt offended.

TRA behaviour is considered justified if they felt offended.

It absolutely isn't. And it has nothing to do with how feminists behave.

An earlier post by BickerinBrattle reminded me a quote

"This is what we call running a nice warm bath of someone else's oppression and then getting into it for a wank, all the while making out that it's worse for you."

which to me describes Jenner's and other AGP's "lived experience" pretty well

Majesty did you read about the crowd of TRAs hammering on windows and kettling people at a meeting they felt offended by? Yes. That kind of behaviour is consistently seen as justified by offence having been caused, it's why Harry Miller raised the money to take it to court.

Compare and contrast that kind of behaviour and excuses for it with the kind of behavioural standards expected of GC women on threads like this. Equal?

I totally get the OP. I think it IS hard when you imagine that someone can’t bear to be in the body they’re in, that they suffer because of it. I also think that this is a view felt by many women, so I don’t think it’s good to just brush it aside.
For me, the trans debate consists of so many, often contradictory issues. You almost need to know about all of them to see how worrying the entire picture is. So, I spoke to a woman a few weeks back who seemed convinced that being trans was a proper diagnosable, physical condition, that a genuine trans woman would never pose a threat to women, because they were a woman.

So, for me, the big thing is self Id. To be honest, in the past I’d not get too bothered about trans women in women only spaces - because there were so few. Because then it was about gender dysphoria, surgery, and much effort to “transition”. It was always considered a “legal fiction”, no one thought they were literally women. Though I wouldn’t have thought twice about using female pronouns, and respecting the way they wanted to live. But, for me, none of it made sense without viewing it as a person unable to deal with being non conforming to gender stereotypes.

Now, it is almost a lifestyle choice. Children are literally being told that they can have a female body and be a boy, and vice versa. We are giving children a “choice” that they perceive they have to make. Young people are having surgery. Yet older people with male bodies are “transitioning” with no surgery. Sometimes hormones, sometimes keeping a completely “Male” appearance (beard, suit, ties) but saying they are a woman. Stonewall has broadened definitions so that anyone “non gender conforming”, or “cross dressing” is trans. There is less talk of gender dysphoria, of hating your body. More talk of “feeling like a woman”, more reliance on female gender stereotypes.

The net result is the trans categories will grow under self Id. (They already have.) The very notion of being female is undermined. And with that all women only spaces. DV refuges, girl guides, women’s prisons. Predators, be they “genuine trans” or not WILL take advantage because that is what predators do. It will require NO effort on their part to say “I am a woman” when they don’t even have to remotely look like one. A sense of privacy from the male gaze will also go. Even when we are most vulnerable.

Where do the Caitlin Jenners fit into this? I think everyone should make an effort to be kind. I know that in GC circles the view is - no - it’s not up to women to be kind. What I mean is showing compassion without giving up our rights. I have long thought that the outcome of gender self Id will hurt the trans community. I will show respect to someone who is trans, same as anyone. I will acknowledge that they have probably had a hard time of things (though not necessarily the hardest time, nor have the monopoly on hard times that TRAs would have us believe). But I will oppose self Id. Always.
As regards sport, it is NOT a lack of sympathy that is the basis for the argument that a trans woman should not compete against women. It is reality. At the bottom of the problem is that someone wants to change sex and that is just not possible. The OP asks why they shouldn’t be able to compete as a woman. The answer is that because it is not possible to do that fairly. No one has the right to a perfect life, to do everything they want. There are many reasons why people can’t compete in sport. Maybe they’ve had an accident, are chronically il. Not had the opportunities or the time. Maybe they’re just not good enough.

So, I think, yes, have some sympathy for the Caitlin Jenners. If an adult wants to transition, if they feel that to be the only avenue, absolutely fine. They should be able to do so with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and having shown a clear commitment to that path. But that doesn’t mean you need to support self Id.

I agree that the relationship with a person in their early 20s is deeply disturbing and it’s amazing how much of a free pass is given in relation to this just because CJ is trans. If CJ still identified as male and had a 22 year old girlfriend or boyfriend, I think where would be a LOT more criticism. Interesting.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter that much how CJ comes across because the important thing to remember is that it is all scripted and rehearsed. I’m a celeb is heavily edited and CJ has been in front of the cameras for years and knows precisely what to say to garner sympathy.

The constant calls to exhibit compassion are fatiguing. How many people are going onto trans forums, requiring transwomen to have some compassion for women ?

Double standards.

Mostly agree with you Nellie great post.
Just not sure CJ is best example.

I think everyone should make an effort to be kind.

No.

HTH.

How many people are going onto trans forums, requiring transwomen to have some compassion for women?

This. Or even telling TRAs on Twitter that it’s not ‘kind’ to tell women to ‘enjoy your erasure’ or to accuse lesbians of being transphobic because of their orientation.

I just don't understand why one small set of people getting their way is dependent on 50% of the population being set aside. I'm very very happy to support third spaces, I'm very strong in my views that everyone has the right to live as they do....but when that involves another group being asked to flatten themselves against the wall, that's where the line is drawn for me. I absolutely refuse to vote myself out of existence so someone else can be made to feel comfortable. How masochistic do I have to be to be accepted as human by this ideology?

How masochistic do I have to be to be accepted as human by this ideology?

Very. You have to debase yourself, and do it with a smile.

Are you smiling hard enough? The corner slipped for a moment there. Bigot.

And so on, and on, and on. Not surprising some who've been on the receiving end for years are getting a bit testy.

Being a woman is inherently demeaning so any man deciding to present himself as a feminine woman is brave, suffers and is generally deserving of utmost sympathy. I think that's the logic.

Oh what awful gender stereotyping.

To be so excited, as CJ was, at the prospect then seems very odd indeed.

Meanwhile, a feminist journalist, Meghan Murphy, has to be surrounded by police and privately hired bodyguards in order to give a speech about women’s rights due to credible threats to her life issued by transactivists.

Meanwhile, police in Hastings investigated a bomb threat made by transactivists to women meeting there and found explosives.

I’ll save my empathy for the women fighting only to preserve legal rights women already won — and who are doing so in the face of violent threat.