I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

[OkayOkay1]

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

I’m a very empathetic person (which has been to my detriment many times in my life) so I know I have a tendency to feel so saddened by the feelings that others have had to experience that I can’t always see the bigger picture.

The TRA types are counting on lots of women to be like this. Don't get me wrong, empathy is a wonderful attribute but it's important to look out for women's needs and rights too.

It's not just 50% though is it? Women = 50% plus whatever percentage of the population that children represent.

Everytime we say TWAW, a child is being misled about the possibility of changing sex.

@ BickerinBrattle - found explosives??? When was this?

Fekko

www.hastingsobserver.co.uk/news/police-investigating-bomb-threat-against-hastings-meeting-1-8539357

I recall reading afterward that the person who made the threat was a man, that the police discovered explosive materials in his flat, but they did not say explosive devices. I can’t find the cite now.

I do realise “explosive materials” can include a myriad of ordinary substances, though. So I should have been clearer.

After that part of the story, I read and could find nothing else. I have no idea if the man was arrested, tried, or convicted.

WPUK, though nervous, went ahead with the meeting.

I mean, if you call in a bomb threat the police are going to look for materials that could be used to make a bomb. Not convinced that not having actually made it yet really lets a person off the hook at that point.

The comments on articles on fb about I'm a Celeb are worth a read. Genuinely shocked how many women are defending CJ and insisting people call her "she" etc and that's she's a real woman. Rather relived by some of the male comments simply not having it.
I can't bear to watch that programme myself.

*relieved

“She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.”

Try to imagine how it feels to be a female athlete who has trained for years to take part in an elite sporting event standing on the silver medal stand of the podium while a biological male with huge physical advantages over you takes the gold medal that would have been yours. Imagine how it would feel to then have to share a changing room with this athlete who stands naked in the changing room with full male genitalia on show. Where’s your sympathy now?

AlwaysTawnyOwl

I would love her to be fully treated as a woman.

How do you treat somebody fully as a woman?

Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex?

Why would it be any more humiliating that competing in any other category? Take away all the gender nonsense and sex is a neutral quality that is outside our control.

Can someone explain to me the argument against having a second men's 100 metres race in the Olympics for people not of African descent?

So you are saying women should have men in their sports because we don't do racial segregation?

That doesn't make sense.

We are all of African descent.

How would you identify the people you define as being of African descent?

ExistentFox

You have the right to support racial segregation if you really want to, but it has nothing to do with this topic.

Can someone explain to me the argument against having a second men's 100 metres race in the Olympics for people not of African descent?

That's not really relevant to this thread, is it? Start a new thread if you wish to discuss men's sport.

This is the feminist section though - discussing issues which impact on women - so perhaps start it in AIBU?

Fox your starter for 10. Why do you think we segregate sports by sex?

It is worth mentioning, if it hasn't been already, that Caitlyn Jenner competed, and won gold, in the Decathlon, prior to transition. At the time, Decathlon was a men's only event. The Decathlon still is a men's only event.

So that's some privilege Jenner has right there - not only are they a famous millionaire, with multiple TV opportunities - but they've also managed to compete & win in a men's only event, AND win "Woman of the Year" in 2015.

So I'm not feeling my sympathy overfloweth for Jenner.

As for whether biological males should be allowed to compete in women's sport - or whether women should not be allowed their own sporting category - here's a handy link to show how this would completely erase women from most sporting categories:

boysvswomen.com/#/

Can someone explain to me the argument against having a second men's 100 metres race in the Olympics for people not of African descent? I'm sure Lemaitre trains as hard as anyone else. (I will take as read the responses calling me derailing,
disingenuous, goady, troll etc., but those aren't explanations, they're deflections.)

Are you seriously suggesting that there is a measure of blackness and not-blackness that is clear separator of physical ability for black-enough and not-black-enough people and thus it could be used to segregate sports?

Like if we split all the eighteen year olds into two groups: black-enough and not-black-enough and got them to perform in races then there would be a huge enough disparity that we'd say, clearly we need to have a new not-black-enough competition so the not-black-enough people have a chance Really? Really? You think that?

You want an analogy? Should we have a separate 100m sprint for women with only one leg? We all say, yes, let's do that. Women with two legs don't get to say they identify as one-legged then join the race.

That web page is astonishing, zebra. The difference sets in so early (which should be bloody obvious, really - there's a reason the RFU sex segregates from under 12s onwards... though apparently Kelly or whatever they're called who plays for Porth Ladies is okay...)

It is, isn't it Barbara! Someone linked to it on here recently - and I thought well that needs to be linked on every discussion about women's sports.

"Why do we segregate into the two groups of humans who have stronger and weaker muscle mass and not race based on dulux colour chart?"

I still can't get over the stupidness of this question.

"Why do we segregate into the two groups of humans who have stronger and weaker muscle mass and not race based on dulux colour chart?"

I still can't get over the stupidness of this question.

So you are saying women should have men in their sports because we don't do racial segregation?

If you'd care to make your way up the Dunning-Kruger chart for a moment you might notice that it's not really about skin colour. We can agree that classifying people into binary "races" determined by the quantity of melanin in their skin is, biologically speaking, simplistic bullshit. Olympic 100m men's finals for the past 35 years have been overwhelmingly comprised quite specifically of African American and African Caribbean people and nobody except racists have a problem with that.

So given that trans women are legally recognised as women you're going to have to come up with a better reason for excluding them than just calling them men. If women's sport were to suddenly become overwhelmed by trans women I daresay you could find one, but I'm not sure how you would avoid excluding Caster Semenya in the process. But I don't think the FWR worldview of "us and all sensible people Vs delusional or malicious trans women and their idiotic allies in unicornland" is as true as you assume it to be.

Races aren't binary....