I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

[OkayOkay1]

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

You are welcome. Get stuck in. Say what you think. Argue the points.

Scolding us for not being nice enough is a red rag to a bull here. A lot of women on these boards are sick to the back teeth of being expected to be nice. There aren't many huns.

Isn't it fascinating how for some people empathy is something they'll trip over themselves to extend to males, and that they expect to be extended in infinite quantities to them, but that somehow they never can quite bring themselves to extend to women?

Also, Jenner is still a member of an exclusive “men only” golf club joined many years ago

Still golfs there and

AFAIK, has not said that women should be allowed to join or even Trans men (if anyone has heard otherwise, please share)

Are you new to Mumsnet @OkayOkay1? 😂 Posting this on the feminist board is not going to end well. Mumsnet is exceptionally anti trans #FloraKnows

"Some of the other replies have been so hate fuelled and unkind."

I couldn't find one single hate fuelled post. By unkind, I presume that means not immediately feeling empathy for poor old Caitlyn and inviting him into the ladies loo for a hug.

"Don’t worry, I won’t be back on the Feminist board."

Yes, you will. Once you've thought of a new sob story which will move us all to tears or else we're nasty meanies.

Thanks 2BthatUnnoticed, all stable here.

I am just sick of having to tolerate an intolerable amount of bullshit.

I am disgusted that I felt the need to add those caveats. On Mumsnet. A site for mums. Females.

And Jenner is rich and well-connected and couldn't give a shit what I call him. But still, using the fetish word, and the he/him words in conjuction with his name risks being a deletable offence. Jenner's voice is not at risk. Women's voices are. Jenner isn't moderated. Jenner is celebrated. Jenner doesn't have to think about caveats, and whether or not he wants to lose one of the few places he can talk about an issue deeply affecting him and his family. Nobody is making Jenner change his language.

But Mumsnet is happy to do that to women. Make us change our language, make us state lies. Make us muzzle our actual voices. Or maybe not happy, but reluctantly agreeing to do so. Mods, I do, though appreciate that it doesn't happen to the same extent on threads set up specifically for support. And, of course, I understand the pressures the site is under. And, I understand I don't have to be here if I'd go better elsewhere, and all the other pacifying things that I do believe but also have to say, or else risk having the worst assumed of my motives, my voice.

And now, done making it about me. Fingers crossed we do not have people coming in a thrird time to talk about the flipping Kardashians, unless they have an amazing feminist critique to make. I want to learn here, and usually do, not have the discourse dragged down to 'let's talk celebrity!'

And in a stunningly predictable turn of events, a new crony has joined OP.

We'll get a little wave of these threads no then, seems to be the new tactic.

. Mumsnet is exceptionally anti trans

Oh dear, you got that one wrong. Mumsnet as a site reflects a wide range of opinions on issues about gender. Some people on Mumsnet are very pro-trans.

On FWR, as you would expect, given the words 'feminism' and 'women's rights', posters are generally pro-women and girls.

Its quite something to get my head around....women silencing women who have concerns about women, on a forum for women. That's quite a mindfuck, isn't it?

That's quite a mindfuck, isn't it?

Yep.

Being a woman isn’t a prize we give to men who have suffer d enough. We aren’t meanies gatekeeping access to an elite club. You are either an adult human female or not. Jenner is not.

Caitlyn Jenner has lived the ultimate life of white male privilege. They are fully accepted as a transwoman. But trans rights are not woman's rights.

I don't know why I bother to try and give the trans widow's perspective to these ploppers.

Looks like you were targeted and deleted Janes gutted I missed your post!

When I first stepped into feminist space on this issue, it was confronting. Those women were unapologetic. I cringed, I thought they were just too extreme - but I kept reading... and they were right. Every time, they were proven right. The thing is, they had the hard earned experience. I needed to be humble enough to respect that and keep going until I understood it.

I understand it now. You've actually gotten off fairly lightly here op. I know it smarts, but if you're genuine I hope you can have the humility to slink back and listen.

Also, fucking Jenner. Even many trans people find jenner's condescending attitude, politics and self proclaimed voice of the oppressed an absolute kick in the teeth.

@OkayOkay1

What saddens me is, why did you feel you couldn’t just educate me rather than biting my nose off?

Because, although many of us are mums, we're not your mum.

Op, go and look up autogynephilia. It's a male fetish where men become sexually aroused through presenting as women, wearing their clothes, being addressed as women, being in women's spaces. It's incredibly common.

A typical man with AGP will be heterosexual, keep his genitalia, transition late in life, and often be married and have fathered children. (Try googling with the hashtag Transgirls, or girlslikeus.)

As opposed to homosexual transsexuals (HSTS), who are generally effeminate men, are attracted to men, have gender dysphoria, and do not regard presenting as a woman as a turn on.

Yep, my voice deleted. Super.

For avoidance of doubt, feminists, you cannot speak your genuinely held thoughts about sexism on this board. You must dissemble. It doesn't matter that dissembling costs you. An American celebrity is more important.

Or rather, you can speak about sexism, so long as it avoids the sexism concerning women being asked to centre and empathise with, a male exhibiting fetishistic behaviour.

As opposed to homosexual transsexuals (HSTS), who are generally effeminate men, are attracted to men, have gender dysphoria, and do not regard presenting as a woman as a turn on.

Datun, even a lot of this cohort still had wives.

Being a woman isn’t a prize we give to men who have suffer d enough.

And this ^^

It's the ultimate in male entitlement.

even a lot of this cohort still had wives.

Yes. It's not as simple as HSTS good, AGP bad. And an HSTS male is still a male, and still exerts male socialisation in relationship with women, unless the HTST male has done a lot of work unpicking that over many years.

All so maddeningly predictable.

Jenner is apparently worth 100 million. An Olympic gold medal winner. Has fathered 6 children by 3 different wives.

And we are supposed to feel sorry for Jenner? Pah!

Datun, even a lot of this cohort still had wives.

Yes, indeed. I'm trying to simplify it for the OP.

Op, tinsel knows more about this than anyone. You should listen. You want to be educated? Read the trans widows threads.

Because currently, I'm really struggling to understand how anyone with the slightest interest in feminism can begin by reserving all their empathy for men. You know, the ones who do all the oppressing.

Idk Caitlyn/Bruce seemed easy going compared to the other Jenner/Kardashian family members. But I’m not really a fan.

Even many trans people find jenner's condescending attitude, politics and self proclaimed voice of the oppressed an absolute kick in the teeth.

The one way to unite trans people (on the left, at least) is to use Jenner as an example of a transitioned male. They hate Jenner, not least for his politics. I've yet to speak to a trans person who believed Jenner should have been 'Woman of the Year'. I've never spoken to a trans person who suggested I should feel any empathy for Jenner.

Which makes use of Jenner as a 'be nice, ladies' subject particularly weird.