I’m so confused by my opinion on the transgender debate

[OkayOkay1]

I have never, ever known a trans person in real life. I thought I had my opinions on the whole issue until this season of I’m a Celebrity. I know it sounds silly, but listening to Caitlyn’s plight has made me question everything.

My views have always been that sex should be determined at birth and cannot be changed but that gender is something that people can choose if they so wish.

That way, sporting events should be categorised by sex, regardless of what gender you may identify as.

I also sympathised with the fact that women who have been subjected to abuse from males would hugely benefit from toilets etc being strictly female only. Although I could see an argument for trans women using women’s toilets at a point where they have fully transitioned surgically.

But I listen to Caitlyn Jenner and what she has been through and she has my utmost respect for being brave enough to go through all that she has. Being in the public eye, the transition process must have been even more daunting. She has lost family over this. I feel for her so much and think that I would love her to be fully treated as a woman. She has fought so hard to get to the place she is now. Wouldn’t it be so humiliating to have to join in with the males in sporting events that are segregated by sex? Or use male changing facilities etc.

I don’t know what the answer is but I am really confused. 😔

It's almost as if the people doing so have no investment at all in protecting trans people, but a whole lot of investment in the idea that women's role in life is to make other people happy.

And no, no man is a woman. AGP or HSTS.

Both rely on sexism and/or misogyny. Neither should be in women's spaces. Women aren't a bloody service.

a whole lot of investment in the idea that women's role in life is to make other people happy.

To which I say, fuck that. A woman's role in life is first and foremost, to live her OWN life.

This requirement that women show empathy to men - NO.

It's not having the empathy that's the problem, it's being required to manifest it, even when it runs counter to your own wellbeing.

I DO have empathy for many men in society - men's suicide rates concern me, the plight of men in poverty concerns me, boys being abused by (mostly) men concerns me, macho culture and its effects on boys and young men concerns me, mens mental health concerns me....

But NONE of that is a female requirement. And none of us have to put our empathy for males ahead of our own interests.

Is this today's thread to get posters to write stuff that gets them a strike?

#FloraKnows

For the poster who first used that, clearly to raise a flag for other misogynists - I hope Flora falls over itself addressing the wrongs levelled at women, rather than just transwomen as we’re all inclusive

Only male privilege allows someone to take a nice perfumed bath in someone else’s oppression, even receive awards for enduring it! and then step out of that water when it’s financially advantageous.

Nicely put

I don't want a strike. There are only a very few places where I feel I can get support as a woman and mother dealing with ROGD. It's one of the very few places that have brilliant feminist women who can help parse the research in order to help me make the correct decisions for my kids.

It feels like an impossible situation though. You can go a long time resisting the goadiness, making sure you don't break the rules, bending over backwards to express things in ways that won't get you deleted - but it takes a toll. It's a harsh expectation, that women impacted negatively by the push to trans children and remove single sex rights, can always reply in a way that puts the needs of males first.

I don't think all mods understand this. (I think some do). I would be heartbroken to receive more deletions, or a strike, but there is only so long one can continue to speak in this artificial, stilted, dishonest way.

I think where a transperson is vulnerable, the expectation is at least somewhat more in line with reality. But Jenner is not vulnerable.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. MNHQ should not be giving strikes to mums here, for voicing their opinions about the appalling assault on women and women's rights going on.

They certainly shouldn't be giving strikes or banning mothers of gender dysphoric children, like janeskettle whose wisdom is much appreciated here - and who I'm sure values the support of like-minded women.

Does CJ have your respect for killing someone and not even apologizing to the lady's family, let alone getting prosecuted for it.

What do you think of CJ using CJ's "deadname" to play golf at an exclusive golf club, because "CJ would never get a membership as CJ" because it's a male only club??

And how about how hard females have fought to get where they are? We have not been given anything, we have fought all the way, and CJ hasn't really had to fight that much, in the grand scheme of things.

How do you feel about CJ being given "woman of the year" less than a yr after CJ transitioned? And can you tell me why she received it, what made CJ woman of the year, because I am yet to find that out.

Seems to be, nauticant.

Caitlyn Jenner is a disgusting narcissist. I don’t follow the Kardashian’s particularly - but how was it spun that he hadn’t spoken with Khloe since the transition, given it was her teenage knickers he was caught wearing.

Not a fetish indeed.

Old enough to be the grandparent of the person he’s in a relationship with.

Tinsel did this for me on the topic of transwidows - although much more kindly than she should have. I am forever grateful. And would have been if she'd torn me off a strip. I'd have deserved it.

XXed did it to me about racism in Canadian politics. Took me a bit to get over myself and realise she was right. And a thousand years ago my feminist lecturer schooled me mercilessly and expected everyone to just keep up.

One of the neat things about feminism is the realization that you first job isn't 'other people's feelings'.

Neat? Best.

nauticant spot on. A run of them. How can everyone ser this apart from MN?

It was shocking the speed that jenner was going, that jenners car smashed into two others and still couldn't slow sufficiently.

The evidence of very clear of killing another road user and risking the lives of many others.

I did feel for Kris there, meantime cj just sits without a facial flicker whilst Kris gets upset for having been publicly accused by cj of being treated badly by her..

I don't understand the claims of suffering by cj, when everyone around cj witnessed and commented on all the excitement expressed by CJ who gave zero fucks seemingly for the effect on their DDs and DGDs.

Horrific that they can show their face in public after such an obscene act of wanking into their own dcs knickers.

I am glad of this thread as it as revealed a lot about cj to me that i hadn't been aware of before. So, thank you OP for opening this discussion that has brought all this out into the sunlight for public scrutiny.

If there was a campaign to see justice done to cj I'd be signing it without delay.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=QYuh39ykG2U
The cctv. Very dangerous driving indeed. Murder on the road. They were driving too fast to stop.

A cover up that cj didn't do time for this.

Fantastic posts janeskettle 👏🏼

I am curious about what the non-creepy way for a father to steal his teenage daughters clothes is. Any way you slice it, it’s grim as fuck.

If you do sneak back, OP, and you do genuinely want to learn more about feminism, why don’t you start with having a think about what being “nice” means in this context. Why is it required, what does it achieve, and why is it so Important that women do it?

Caitlyn also named themselves after their son's longterm girlfriend.

Of all the trans people I have sympathy for, Jenner isn't that high up on my list. Mainly due to the massive wealth and all that but killing a woman also plays a part.

If CJ didn't have the money to get a boob job and facial surgery to the extent that CJ has, would CJ still receive the same amount of empathy from others?

Why would it be 'humiliating' for transwomen to be in male spaces? I'm sure men could show a bit of empathy.

Dick That 70 year old woman was killed in Feb 2015. In the April that year it was announced that he "identified as a woman" and had been taking hormones.

This then became a massive story and diverted attention away from the fact that a woman died.

Ricky Gervais observes this in one of his routines, how Jenner could then claim to be a "different" person to the man behind the wheel.

(Using 'he' as Jenner was known by and introduced as that in the media at the time)

I think the word here is ‘need’.

Women need to have access to safe refuge spaces and examination/clinic spaces based on their sex for example.

No one needs to compete in sports or try on clothes in a fitting room (it won’t kill them or out them in harms way not to).

Also the thorny issue or transsexual or transsexual. They are all thrown under the same umbrella these days along with many many others - but are very different, so why are we being persuaded to treat them in the same way?

Why would it be 'humiliating' for transwomen to be in male spaces? I'm sure men could show a bit of empathy.

Interesting giveaway, isn't it? Men dressing as women? How humiliating for them. That's the lowest of the low after all.

Shows up the unwitting misogyny immediately.

Jenner got lucky by being the first cross dresser to see the money making potential and was fortuitous to have the contacts and back story ready in place to set it up.

I remember reading at the time that after Jenner split up from Kris, whilst still presenting as a male, they were considering documenting their transition as a means of replacing the money lost from no longer being part of the Kardashian reality cash cow.

Call me a cynic, but it seemed feasible at the time and I haven't changed my view. I think that's why I was so disgusted by the Woman of the Year award.

*Just to let you all know. I am now going to hide this thread and won’t be reading any more of the comments.

I am happy to educate myself thanks. In all honesty, I didn’t realise there was so much to be educated on when it comes to this topic until I posted here. I am fairly young and like I said, I have absolutely no first hand experience of this topic. I have empathy for anyone who goes through struggles in their lives so when Caitlyn expressed some of hers, I did empathise and I’m not going to apologise for that.

Don’t worry, I won’t be back on the Feminist board. I will research and I will form my own opinions on these issues from now on. There is a nice way to speak to people, even when you disagree with everything they are saying. I thought you would maybe welcome someone who was interested to hear a feminist viewpoint but I see that’s not really the case.

I wish you all well.*

Translated = this thread didn't go the way I thought it would and I'm flouncing. Playground equivalent of taking your ball back as your team is losing.

With a passive aggressive "wish you all well" to boot.