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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prisoner denied GRS - court case.

132 replies

CactusAndCacti · 29/11/2019 08:27

I can't see any other post but a prisoner is suing the NHS as they were refused GRS.

This prisoner was convicted for having indecent images of children and for sexual activity with a young girl. They are now suing because of the distress that has been caused to them.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/11/28/transgender-paedophile-sues-nhs-refusing-reassignment-surgery/amp/

They are in prison for child sex offences and they think it acceptable to sue for their 'distress'. It looks like the tale is being seen as an attempt to get an easier ride away from a male prison which holds little back when it comes to children and prisoners.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 29/11/2019 11:27

I’m surprised your not actually pressing for all paedophiles to be put on testosterone blockers as part of their punishment.

Why do you insist on keeping up with these ludicrous attempted gotchas?

After the disastrous failed group therapy experiment on rehabilitating convicted sex offenders actually resulted in increased recidivism (they all used the sessions to give each other ideas), the Home Office decided on another fabulous scheme - anti-androgens. Result? Between a third and a half decided to "transition" - so creating a larger queue of XY persons clamouring for transfer to the female estate.

Try again. Or, perhaps, don't.

ffswhatnext · 29/11/2019 11:28

It's ridiculous that it's offered to begin with. There's surgery I want that will give me the body I should have. I needed a nose job after it was broken as a young teen and wasn't fixed properly. That along with a few other issues caused a lot of problems for me. Yet, I had to pay for the nose that I should have had, and resembled the one I was born with.

I now want a boob lift and a slight reduction, guess what I'm saving up to get the ones that I should have.

What other procedures does the NHS offer on a sexist basis?

LangCleg · 29/11/2019 11:29

Why are paedophile threads like catnip to AWAs?

You'd think shilling for child molesters would be something they'd prefer to avoid.

Inebriati · 29/11/2019 11:30

I’m surprised your not actually pressing for all paedophiles to be put on testosterone blockers as part of their punishment.

Thats your bias talking. You really need to talk with us more and lecture less.

Many of the women here are better informed than to think that removing sexual function removes the desire to offend. Offenders are often to achieve an erection, in which case they resort to using objects, which include bottles and knives.

ffswhatnext · 29/11/2019 11:34

Mastectomies is another one that I am surprised doesn't get prioritised for funding.
Maybe women need to start stepping up and saying are you having a laugh. How comes the trans person takes priority? If it's about being born in the wrong body and distressing so viewed as a health condition, it still shouldn't be prioritised before a bio woman who lost one/both to cancer.

ThePurported · 29/11/2019 11:36

After the disastrous failed group therapy experiment on rehabilitating convicted sex offenders actually resulted in increased recidivism (they all used the sessions to give each other ideas), the Home Office decided on another fabulous scheme - anti-androgens. Result? Between a third and a half decided to "transition" - so creating a larger queue of XY persons clamouring for transfer to the female estate.

That's absolutely shocking. Call me cynical, but I really struggle to believe that the anti-androgens miraculously brought out the 'authentic self' of these sex offenders.

Grimbles · 29/11/2019 11:49

Maybe women need to start stepping up and saying are you having a laugh

Women dont though. Because we are told...

...dont like to make a fuss

...there are people worse off so accept that they are the priority

...boobs dont matter, be grateful you're still alive!

And so on.

TalkingintheDark · 29/11/2019 11:53

the claimant has lived as a woman in prison for the last eight years

the fact that the claimant's real life experience (as a woman) has been acquired in prison

As a woman, with the protected characteristic of sex, I find those statements - and all the references to the prisoner as “she” - not just deeply, deeply offensive but a form of misogynistic hate speech.

I am a member of the female sex class that has been dominated, victimised , abused, controlled, exploited, oppressed by the male sex class for countless generations, going back thousands of years, across the whole globe. This oppression has not ended (though even if it had, its effects would still be felt for a long time afterwards owing to the depth and extent of the phenomenon); it is still very much current - most obviously in some parts of the developing world but also right here in the western world, albeit more covertly.

As such, for a male person to appropriate “womanhood”, and claim entitlement to and ownership of the term “woman”, is itself an act of extreme oppression, one which is a direct result of male privilege. Forcing women - actual adult human females - to refer to this prisoner and others as “she” is an act of coercive control, an act of oppression.

It clearly demonstrates where the true power lies.

The reach of trans rights activists is such that all MSM outlets now routinely refer to male individuals like this as “she” and “women”. Feminists are routinely banned on the male-owned platforms of Twitter and Facebook simply for stating biological and sociological reality. Even on this female-owned and dominated site, we risk deletion and banning for correctly identifying the sex of those we know to be male, of the male sex, that is the oppressor class.

The reach of patriarchy is such that large numbers of women are colluding in this further subordination of our sex. There again we see evidence of the power differential that is an inevitable legacy of thousands of years of women doing whatever they can to survive in patriarchal society, much like the phenomenal success among women of Fifty Shades of Grey shows just how deeply, as a sex, we have internalised masochism as an acceptable and even desirable state of internal being.

Abuse survivors who engage in healing understand with retrospect that denial is our chief survival mechanism when we are absolutely powerless to change the situation we are in. Women as a group have been being abused by men as a group, throughout recorded history, and were completely powerless to change our situation in too, too many circumstances, for far, far too long. Denial was the only way to survive it.

But breaking down that denial is the only way forward. It is something we have to do if we ever want to see a world where women - female people - are accorded the same fully human status as men - male people in society, in everyone’s hearts, minds, and crucially, unconscious.

As an abuse survivor who grew up in a world where lies reigned supreme, I know the value of truth, and I know how crucial it is to genuine progress on a personal level. It is the same on a societal level. We will make no progress as long as we force people to lie, especially if we force women to lie. The idea that this prisoner has been “living as a woman” is an abhorrent lie that reduces “womanhood” down to nothing more than hair, clothing, make up, a feeling in a man’s head; that denies the reality of our lived experience and the infinite number of ways in which an adult human female in a free society can live.

Please @MNHQ @JustineMumsnet think about this. Think about the fact you’re forcing women to lie, to be complicit in our own abuse, our own oppression. Think what that means in a world where power is still concentrated in male hands. Think what a beacon you could be for truth, justice, true progress if you stopped forcing women to lie about the sex of our oppressors, about the reality of our oppression. It would truly be a huge step forward.

Bronners1978 · 29/11/2019 11:59

Regarding breast augmentation, it is not part of the NHS Care Pathway, or tracheal shaves, or FFS. You can apply through your CCG, but it’s extremely rare for a trans woman to get any of these.

Trans men can get mastectomies as part of their transition on the care pathway.

A convicted paedophile or any prisoner requiring medical treatment, including GRS, should be allowed it inline with the care standards.

Any trans prisoner should be housed in appropriate accommodation, whether that the female estate, segregated if deemed necessary or male estate. (In line with EA guidance, this should be determined by risk assessment on a case by case basis).

LangCleg · 29/11/2019 12:06

That's absolutely shocking. Call me cynical, but I really struggle to believe that the anti-androgens miraculously brought out the 'authentic self' of these sex offenders.

@jennyrossity on the Twatter did a lot of research about this. I'm pretty sure she got suspended. Surprise, surprise.

ThePurported · 29/11/2019 12:14

The idea that this prisoner has been “living as a woman” is an abhorrent lie that reduces “womanhood” down to nothing more than hair, clothing, make up, a feeling in a man’s head

I find it all a bit medieval. Hard to believe this is UK in 2019.
Great post Talking Flowers

happydappy2 · 29/11/2019 12:18

Bronners you talk like you are in a position of authority, but don't seem to realise that actually, if you asked women how they feel about having a transwoman in prison with them, most if not all would say NO.

Men should always be housed in the male estate, no matter how they identify....in a separate wing if necessary.

Bearing in mind there is no actual provable test, for gender dysphoria, unlike say cancer, diabetes, tooth decay or anything that is clearly identified, then many would say that tax payers money should not be funding unnecessary medical procedures.

Jaxhog · 29/11/2019 12:19

So let me get this right: a convicted pedophile can get 8 sessions of facial hair removal, limited voice therapy, HRT and Gender Reassignment Surgery, on the NHS? While cancer patients can't get drugs? While other people can't get a life or death transplant?

Has the world gone completely mad?

littlbrowndog · 29/11/2019 12:24

And women can’t get breast reduction which is a life changer

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 29/11/2019 12:26

Has the world gone completely mad?

No, it's just that the people in this world with the power are pushing an agenda.

littlecabbage · 29/11/2019 12:27

Any trans prisoner should be housed in appropriate accommodation, whether that the female estate, segregated if deemed necessary or male estate. (In line with EA guidance, this should be determined by risk assessment on a case by case basis).

Stop misquoting the EA. It legislates against discrimination towards those who have had or plan to undergo "gender reassignment" (whatever that vague, fluffy term means).

That does not mean that transwomen should be allowed in women's prisons. It means that transwomen should not be treated less favourably than other male-bodied prisoners.

nauticant · 29/11/2019 12:45

Quite often on MN someone comes on to a thread to tell us what trans people want and what they are supposed to be entitled to. It's reassuring when this lets the mask slip which causes a general WTF! response from the women on here.

"What will they not want?" is a good question to ask yourself whenever this happens.

OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 29/11/2019 12:53

Why are paedophile threads like catnip to AWAs?

You'd think shilling for child molesters would be something they'd prefer to avoid.

Yes, can we have a little less of the "poor tortured soul in the wrong body, how can you meanie women deny them the surgery they desperately need" and a little more of the "this convicted sex offender should not be allowed anywhere near potential victims" please.

I feel as though I say this a lot but fantastic post, Talking.

Michelleoftheresistance · 29/11/2019 12:55

"What will they not want?" is a good question to ask yourself whenever this happens.

Quite.

You'll hear a whole lot about what the males in question want, feel, prefer, experience. And how important this is to understand and respond to.

You'll hear absolutely bugger all about the females in the situation. You'd be forgiven for thinking there weren't any. Or that they were some kind of insentient furniture or prop as far as the speaker is concerned.

LangCleg · 29/11/2019 12:57

No, it's just that the people in this world with the power are pushing an agenda.

This. Oh look - heterosexual, bourgeois persons with XY chromosomes want something. They must have it. But it's not the latest iteration of patriarchy. Oh no. Perish the very thought.

Bronners1978 · 29/11/2019 12:59

I’m not misrepresenting the EA, here is the guidance from the EHRC. If you go to the page and read through, there is no mention of GRCs. The guidance applies to all trans people regardless of legal status.

The exemptions are also specifically stated here to be in an individual basis, recognising the variation on our individual progress in our transition and how we pass.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

Prisoner denied GRS - court case.
LangCleg · 29/11/2019 13:07

God, we're not going to have to go through regulatory capture and the links between EHRC and Stonewall again, are we?

Bronners - keep going. It's fine. You're shilling for a paedophile while continuing to misrepresent the law and pretending you haven't noticed that both a parliamentary committee and one of the two major UK political parties have already affirmed the problems with EHRC's guidance. The game's up.

Michelleoftheresistance · 29/11/2019 13:08

From your quoted section it's clear: single sex provisions can use an exemption even for people with GRCs.

These exceptions need to be used. I get what it is in being included in female provision for the sex offender in question. What do you think is in it for the female people who will be sacrificed to this male's gender identity choices?

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 29/11/2019 13:18

I’m sorry Michelle , you seem to be assuming that women prisoners have any rights to expect privacy, dignity and safety while incarcerated

Rookie error!

ThePurported · 29/11/2019 13:24

It's refreshing to see someone who admits that men with gender identities can also be paedophiles.

how we pass
I couldn't find the bit about passing on the EHRC website - where is it discussed?

Do you see a problem in society helping paedophiles 'pass' better as women?