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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

There seems to be something very wrong in canada

129 replies

QuentinWinters · 27/11/2019 07:59

Very pro the "woke" agenda and trans womens rights, whilst coercing indigenous females into having sterilisation
www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/indigenous-women-kept-from-seeing-their-newborn-babies-until-agreeing-to-sterilization-says-lawyer-1.4902693

I'm properly shocked by this article. How can a civilised country even countenance this?

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Coyoacan · 28/11/2019 12:25

A couple of comments.

I don't think being a First Nation person gives you the right to shut down all conversations on this subject.

One member from an ethnic group is not representative, as everyone in that group with have different points of view.

Two-spirit is only an element of SOME indigenous cultures in Canada, not all of them.

And for another poster, its not just Canadians who don't like their country being criticised by visitors. Nobody likes outsiders criticising their country, that's basic human nature.

Goosefoot · 28/11/2019 12:48

The women who were murdered were not valued by those paid to protect them. It is that, rather than the presence of Pickton, that shows up the woman’s rights issue.

But no one has said there isn't a women's rights issue, what they have said is that it's being presented as being a matter of directly targeting women because they are First Nations. And it isn't about "defending Canada" it's about being accurate about what happened.

For example - The police did not look into those murders the way they should have. This seems to have been in part directly about not caring much about prostitutes. But the other thing that happened was that although there was a pattern that indicated a serial killer might be at work, that was not picked up because it was just accepted that women working on the street selling sex often went missing and were at high risk. Which is true, but it blinded the police to what was really going on even though some other people tried to bring it to their attention.

But this story consistently is presented as being about indigenous women, about being specifically indifferent to them, with the implication that white women who were in the same position would not have been ignored.

The case of sterilisation is the same problem. The article says they are targeting native women, and the impression is that this is only because of heir ethnicity, it is some kind of desire to stop them from reproducing. There is also a sense that this might be an organised state led initiative. They are very much playing on memories of the residential school system, that's what is brought to mind for any Canadian reading this.

But if what is really going on is that you have a group of women with serious problems, addiction mainly, affecting their kids who are being born into addiction and removed, and that individual doctors or social workers are trying to act to protect the kids (and maybe in some sense the women too who suffer terribly having their children removed) this is still a problem, but a different one. It's not state organised or led, it's not about trying to eliminate First Nations people. It's about trying to respond to poverty and addiction and individuals overstepping in an attempt to do that. It raises the question of why some ethnic groups are over-represented in this population.

It's not trying to deflect blame to ask that problems like these be understood and presented accurately, that journalists ask the relevant questions. It's not right to let on that this is happening exclusively to indigenous women if that is not what is going on. It's not right to completely fail to point out this is something that mainly affects women in poverty, or with serious addictions, or even mental health problems. And any solutions or initiatives to help these situations are not going to be effective if they aren't directed toward the real causes of this specific problem.

And maybe it is not surprising if people see sterilisation as a state organised form of genocide as more morally reprehensible than individual practitioners using sterilisation in very hard cases to try and prevent a lot of terrible suffering of infants and children. That doesn't mean the latter is good and I hope adults will be aware that good intentions can result in very bad practices, but moral nuance is not a bad thing.

How people see pointing this out as being some kind of apologetic I do not understand.

Creepster · 29/11/2019 01:46

It took them years before they looked into the prostituted women murdered by Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer because prostituted women are considered disposable by both the serial killers and law enforcement.
Regarding the transgender issue in Canada and this claim: You're pushing it right there. In your opinion anything that benefits trans people, or is pro-trans is anti-women. Myself and many other women don't see it that way. I see being tolerant of others, and including trans women as women, as a way forward for everyone.

The transgender advocacy organization have declared women's right to be anti-trans. I respectfully suggest that your statement has the facts wrong way round.
#No debate was tried first, and when women refused to submit the demonization of Feminists came next and now all women's rights are condemned.

Durgasarrow · 29/11/2019 06:13

The OP has made an excellent point. Canada praises itself for its wokeness as it snuffs out women's rights to self-definition and single sex spaces. Meanwhile, it has some not-so-woke dirty secrets in its treatment of indiginous people. But Canada has never been immune to racism, any more than Mr. Justin Blackface Trudeau is. Just one example: Canada's internment camps for its Japanese citizens during World War II.

Tarkus · 29/11/2019 09:07

Kind of like a much more polite version of how Scots react to being assumed to be English

(I'm imagining the Canadian version involves less swearing.)

Your imagination is pretty limited but your ability to spew lazy, ill- informed stereotypes is excellent.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 29/11/2019 10:08

cor blimey. Patriotism / Nationalism really does interfere with one's sense of humour, dunnit?

Justhadathought · 29/11/2019 10:14

The country didn't countenance this, and it's set up a Truth and Reconciliation committee. What this has to do with trans rights I have no idea, but of course everything on the feminist board has to be trans bashing right?

It was a valid analogy. On one hand a country that be purports to be progressive and liberal.....and yet this still goes on in total contradiction to ethnic/women's rights.

2BthatUnnoticed · 29/11/2019 10:23

Yes, sad to see such ill-informed stereotypes on MN 😢 Surely people know that most Canadians respond with warm appreciation when mistaken for United States citizens!?

Tarkus · 29/11/2019 13:06

Yes, sad to see such ill-informed stereotypes on MN 😢 Surely people know that most Canadians respond with warm appreciation when mistaken for United States citizens!?

I assume your post is sarcastic but I certainly agree it is disappointing to see such ill- informed prejudices appearing.

The vast and overwhelming majority of Canadians and Scots are perfectly capable of understanding that the nuances of difference in their accents from respectively American or English accents are not obvious. Posting nonsense suggesting the Scottish reaction to such a mistake would involve aggression and swearing is just regurgitating a lazy, ill informed stereotype.

Goosefoot · 29/11/2019 14:03

It was a valid analogy. On one hand a country that be purports to be progressive and liberal.....and yet this still goes on in total contradiction to ethnic/women's rights.

I think Canadas approach to gender ideology is bad, but I'd also say it's coming from a really different place than what that report is talking about with the sterilisations. It's not really contradictory, it's a different kind of issue, a different mechanism at work.

What is really similar IMO is the way that article from the CBC was written, compared to the way they treat trans issues. They totally neglected to ask any important questions about what the circumstances were, who the women were, what the common threat that connected them all way, and what the connection between the people who were responsible was. And the way it cottoned onto the identity politics angle, and would not see anything else. It's exactly the way they report about things like the treatment of the head librarian in Toronto, or Megan Murphy, or Yaniv.

Ritascornershop · 29/11/2019 14:45

Indigenous issues are never off the political agenda or out of the media. How individual Firsts people are treated is a very different matter. As a white, left-wing Canadian with Indigenous relatives & who’s worked with Indigenous clients (using that term so as not to be outing) my observation is that an awful lot of people think they’ve got a right-on attitude but tend to pathologise FN people. Tend to approach interactions from the viewpoint that they are helping the poor FN people who will benefit from their intervention/assistance. It’s all got a bit of a patronizing smell to me. I’ve watched how white colleagues never ask FN colleagues how their weekend was, did they end up buying that new car, how’s their wife, did you watch the hockey? It’s all “so what was it like for your grandparents in residential school?” & “did you make bannock this weekend”. And it’s gets on their nerves, always being seen as a problem for white people to solve. Having white people think FN only want to talk about FN subject matter. Not being seen as a human in the same way.

There’s a lot of acknowledging we’re on the traditional ground of the people at every meeting and public event while still seeing them as other, as in need of our guidance.

Inebriati · 29/11/2019 15:10

Where did you get that from this thread?

Ritascornershop · 29/11/2019 15:16

Inebriati, if you’re talking to me, this thread is in part about how Canada treats Indigenous women and I’m saying we have an odd attitude to FN people in general.

Tanith · 29/11/2019 20:05

"What pisses me off is when a bunch of Brit's, who's ancestors created the problem in the first place, start spouting falsehoods and lies on a public forum."

Please explain how our ancestors are to blame. Our ancestors stayed right here. Perhaps you should look closer to home...

2BthatUnnoticed · 29/11/2019 22:13

Who said Scottish people would respond “with aggression?” Confused Does swearing = “aggression” over there?

I thought PP was Scottish/English heritage & being self-deprecating which (at the dire risk of introducing an ill-informed stereotype...) is a form of humour not unknown in those parts.

Tarkus · 29/11/2019 22:24

Kind of like a much more polite version of how Scots react to being assumed to be English

(I'm imagining the Canadian version involves less swearing.)

This is the quote. Whether you think swearing doesn't mean an aggressive reaction is up to you (personally I think it reacting by swearing to anything as minor as being mistaken for being English would be an aggressive reaction).

Even if you think it isn't aggressive it's a lame, unthinking stereotype that a Scottish person would resort to swearing in this situation.

Inebriati · 29/11/2019 22:33

Can we get the thread back on track?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 29/11/2019 22:48

Shame that the person who said it (me) is Scottish, then. Being a sweary lot is nothing to be ashamed of.

This thread is a mess.

nauticant · 29/11/2019 22:57

You're not wrong.

allmywhat · 29/11/2019 23:43

Because Canada is accepting of trans people and makes efforts to include them, it means Canada is anti-women.

Have you seen this article? Be warned - it is upsetting. It may be unlikely the person I'm quoting will care. But if you think women are people, it's a tough read.

torontosun.com/news/national/hunter-trans-killers-baby-rapists-terrifying-female-inmates

Creepster · 30/11/2019 00:56

The country didn't countenance this, and it's set up a Truth and Reconciliation committee.

I do not mean to be rude but we have a long history in the US and Canada with commissions set up to whitewash the problem which is exactly what the latest Truth and Reconciliation commission did.
White men in power cannot be reconciled to the truth about their history and their ongoing behavior, which is why the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Inebriati · 30/11/2019 00:58

Because Canada is accepting of trans people and makes efforts to include them, it means Canada is anti-women.

Actually, no. Canada swiftly moved from being inclusive to demanding women give up every single sex space and service, even when there are mixed sex alternatives.

LovePoppy · 30/11/2019 01:24

The women who were murdered were not valued by those paid to protect them. It is that, rather than the presence of Pickton, that shows up the woman’s rights issue.

This was a Vancouver police issue, more than a systemic “Canada” issue.

fallfallfall · 30/11/2019 02:02

I lived at the very very northern end of the highway of tears. Lived up north for 30 years.
Drove the highway multiple times a year as a passenger looking in the ditches and along the tree lines as we drove to the nearest big city. 8 long hours.