Only consenting to receiving medical treatment from a female is not acceptable

[Siameasy]

mobile.twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1198215833006362630

One NHS trust says it’s unacceptable for women to say they only consent to medical treatment from “natal females”. I find this completely outrageous and couldn’t find a thread on it already. Bloody hell!

I get people have beliefs I'm surrounded by it. My belief is prioritise your health as you've not got much else without it.

I'm going to be very blunt here. This is not your choice. You should not be allowed to make that choice for other people, except possibly if they are minors who are in your care. The fact that you think you should be able to override other people's choices in that way is outrageous.

Clearly, and very unfortunately, that sort of "well I know better what's best for you" attitude seems to be endemic in both the NHS and our political leaders. I would like to see a direct legal challenge. I wish it didn't have to come to that, because for a challenge to happen it means that someone's wishes would already have been ignored and their choices taken away from them, but sadly I think that being hauled into court in as high profile a way as possible is the only thing that's going to put a stop to this sneering disregard for the wishes of patients.

(Aside - any healthcare professional who believes that the patients are there to validate the HCPs sense of identity is in the wrong profession.)

I’m sure someone has said this already but do men refuse treatment unless it is a male doctor? Because I do think if they did it would be considered sexist but women are allowed to.

Don’t get me wrong, I do think women should be allowed to ask for female doctors (and I don’t include transwomen in that) so maybe I should say, female doctors who have xx chromosomes.

I can’t bear this crushing of women’s rights by the trans community. Some areas should be sacred and when it comes to who we are comfortable with doing internal procedures on our vaginas, we should be allowed the final decision.

Let's dissect this pile of gaslighting bollocks, shall we?

The response to the patient's concern isn't appropriate and breaches legislative protection afforded to transgender people. Someone's trans status can not be disclosed to a a third party without the expressed permission of the trans person

In this case the HCP would not be disclosing anything - the patient has already noticed that the other patient is biologically male, that's why she's complaining.

and the assumption that others in the ward will feel uncomfortable is unfounded.

There is no assumption - we know the patient is uncomfortable because she said so.

In this instance there is no need to disclose or seek permission to disclose gender identity.

Well, know, because it was already obvious to the patient, which again we already knew.

The nurse should work to allay the patient's concerns

Disregard her concerns, and her feelings along with them, and her mental and emotional health.

it would be appropriate to re-iterate that the ward is is indeed female and that there are no men present.

So, lie to and gaslight her. I'm sure that will aid in her speedy recovery.

Her duty of care extends to protect people from harrassment and should the woman continue to make demands about the removal of the transgender patient and be vocal in the ward about it would be appropriate to remind her of this.

If a patient attempts to speak out and protect themselves, threaten them.

Ultimately it may be the complainant who is required to be removed.

Oh, threatening them didn't work? Better punish them then. After all, who cares about that person's medical outcomes (or feelings, or mental health)? She's only a woman after all.

@twatticusfinch I appreciate your contribution and I absolutely see the logistical practicalities but somehow I feel if this was a ‘male’ issue they would find a way to work around it!

Leckford “If not, shut up”

Is that what you have to say to the women on this thread who have talked about their personal trauma and the reasons they don’t want to be intimately examined by a Male HCP? Shut up? Christ.

but if you do have issues with past sexual abuse etc you can certainly ask for them to be considered by having a third or even fourth person in the room.

How on earth do you think that makes any sort of practical or financial sense (I'm ignoring the complete disregard for women's feelings for now)? Woman is allowed to request female HCP, does so, gets one - exam requires one person. Woman is not allowed to request female HCP but is allowed to request chaperone/s - exam requires 2-3 people. And all for the sheer mean spirited joy of refusing to allow women to retain any rights to sex based privacy or consideration.

Honestly, do people hear themselves?

Employers have to keep any employees' trans status really locked down so that maybe one or two managers will know. Whoever is scheduling appointments would not be informed.

The problem is that although technically people can't be told if someone is trans, in practice it is frequently blindingly obvious.

It’s not just women that prefer a same sex practitioner. My late father had prostate cancer. He saw a female GP in his surgery once about his cancer-related discomfort. He told me how surprised she was to see a male patient, explaining to him how infrequently male patients saw her about their urology/male cancer problems. They nearly always booked their appointments with the male partners (as my father did). If my father was still alive now he would have no difficulty understanding women’s concerns about this awful guidance.

If you need medical attention and there is someone who could potentially save your life I think you should be grateful for that. No excuses.

So, what happens when someone refuses (and they will)? Do you propose that the hospital staff hold them down or strap them to the bed so that treatment can be forced on them?

"No excuses" for refusing something you find traumatic. Who talks to people like that?

I appreciate your contribution and I absolutely see the logistical practicalities but somehow I feel if this was a ‘male’ issue they would find a way to work around it!

Just to clarify in case my earlier post wasn't clear, I think the law is a mess and needs changing. I don't think there is any workaround though on the way it currently stands re: trans staff. I have no idea whether this is something that was thought about when the GRA and Equality Act were drafted and debated (I suspect not).

The example with the transwoman on the female ward concerns me. Transwomen without GRCs are not legally female. NHS staff obviously won't check who has a GRC and who does not (they will not be asking to see copies of birth certificates etc) but then are supposed to assert that everyone on the ward is female. I don't know enough about health law to know what the legal position is, but agree with pp that it definitely feels like lying and gaslighting.

The problem is that although technically people can't be told if someone is trans, in practice it is frequently blindingly obvious.

Indeed, but as with the case study above concerning the transwoman on the female ward, it would be illegal for the NHS to acknowledge what everyone already sees.

Unless it's an intimate procedure, I don't think you should be able to demand a female doctor. Even then in emergency situations or with surgery you should have the best qualified individual! Safety concerns can be satisfied by having a chaperone which all drs provide on request

I moved to an area three years ago with a small GP surgery. There are two GPs, both male.

Apparently I can request a female locum who usually cone in on a couple of days, but I'd need to ring up. I was made to feel like I was being 'a pain' by asking for a female GP.

As a result, I won't go to my GP for anything that involves an intimate examination.

As a PP said, how many women are putting their lives at risk because they don't have easy access to a female HCP?

It is about intimate procedures. Read the thread.

Routine intimate procedures are scheduled and I've never seen a man in those roles, eg at the hospital minor gynaecological outpatient procedures clinic there's no men allowed past the door from the waiting room.

How lucky for you. It won't stay that way if the NHS and the people pushing them to adopt these policies have their way. Again, read the thread.

Where does the discrimination end?

I know, it’s terrible. Discrimination against women and their sex based rights being eroded for the convenience of men pretending to be women.

If I sound short tempered it's because I just read an entire thread full of people telling traumatized women to shut up and that they have "no excuses" for having boundaries around intimate care.

The "you'd lurrrrrve a HCP of any gender for emergency life-saving treatment therefore you should lurrrrrve one for all other procedures" "argument" is a weird one.

There's a lot of things people would accept or do if their lives were in danger. Like, say, killing someone in self-defence, or cannibalism, or hiding in sewers. We don't usually demand that people then live their normal lives by those standards.

If you have ‘religious’ issues or anything else you have the option to go private and choose which doctor/specialist you see. If not shut up.

What an appalling thing to say. The NHS has previously explicitly offered patients the right to ask for a HCP of the same sex. And your use of quotes around religious suggests that this consideration is illegitimate or feigned. But religion is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.

If not shut up

There it is. “Don’t talk about this”

when I had to have surgical management of an incomplete miscarriage, the gynecologist was male, in his 60s, clearly very compassionate and experienced and while the whole thing was hell, his being male was not an issue and I didn't get the slightest sense that he was getting any kind of sexual thrill from rummaging around in my vagina. there was my dh and a nurse there the whole time too and I never felt unsafe.

if he had been wearing a dress and long hair and makeup and asking me to use female pronouns then you bet that would have felt different. that would have told me that this is a person who regards womanhood as a costume and who is probably getting a sexual thrill from being accepted as a woman. putting me into position of being a prop for his kicks when I was at my most vulnerable. absolutely a different situation, no matter how many other people were there for chaperone purposes.

Someone's trans status can not be disclosed to a a third party without the expressed permission of the trans person

This would be actually hilarious if it wasn’t so serious. Have you ever actually seen one trans person that actually looks genuinely and convincingly like their acquired gender?

It would be a special kind of hell having chaperones there and knowing that there's no point in appealing to them if you feel violated because they're just going to gaslight you and lecture you about your emotional response being un-woke.

Absofuckinglutely, SoxiFodoujUmed. Two very different scenarios.