No person can consent to their own death, or to injury to cause death

[Dangertime]

Verdict on the Grace Millane case - murder

Justice Moore to the jury:
"Consent is not relevant to murder. No person under New Zealand law can consent to their own death, or to injury to cause death" and Justice Moore tells the jury that "with all that in mind, they have to answer the question - Did Grace consent to be strangled by the accused to the degree and duration of force applied to her neck?"

(Quoting from the live coverage)

www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/117069680/grace-millane-murder-trial-latest-updates

Porn has really ruined sex for women.

One of the things I find interesting about this is the way it is reported so differently in UK media to the women who have been murdered over here by strangulation

Things are worse if they happen overseas?

Plenty of recent cases with young women strangled to death over here and reporting v different.

Other point

If you strangle someone to death they are going to struggle, most likely. We are fairly large animals and to kill us is not trivial. Takes some effort. Yet in UK 'she asked for it' seems to work just fine. No consideration of what it would take in practice, as if the woman is passive? This is worrying. Women are people who when being throttled to death, even if the start was consensual, will struggle. This seems to not be a thing considered in cases in UK. We are not actually that easy to kill, like, I put a hand gently on her throat and next sec she was dead. This is bollocks most of the time. Unless woman is too drunk/ drugged to react in which case it's rape plus I don't know, recklessness or something.

The woman who was killed recently in UK where he got really light sentence, he said she was too drunk and coked to indicate anything, he wasn't done for rape though.

It's all very worrying.

Flinn loads of women on here back on dating game after divorce say things have really changed. Men randomly spitting, slapping, hair pulling, hands round neck and expecting anal.

I mean with consent then ok but I understand the choking thing is super dangerous even if careful. But the posters say there's no asking, the men just do it.

But even with porn, they know it's not real life. And they can't imagine the average woman wants to be hurt, spat on etc. So why are they doing it? Because they want to try it? Because they can?

I have met this man, he worked for my company briefly last year and we were all very relieved with the result of this trial.

Apparently that hotel he lived in was one that 'hosts' people on parole..

I work next door, and no, it is a hotel for tourists. I believe he lived there as his grandfather gave him money, but who knows the truth

See, I don’t think a law specifically against choking would be superfluous. I do not think it can ever be safe to put your hands round someone’s neck, and I don’t think men should be getting charged with the lesser crime of manslaughter because there was no “intent to kill”. I think if there was a law specifically prohibiting choking it would be much harder to claim you didn’t know you might harm the person when you put your hands around their neck.

At a guess though, the crime would probably be similar in sentence to manslaughter rather than to murder. Manslaughter can be quite a serious crime.

It might be more effective to have some sort of safety campaign.

I was suffocated during a rape some years ago, and the CPS wouldn't prosecute for lack of evidence, but today I suddenly wondered why suffocating me wasn't brought as a separate charge.
Does non-consensual choking immediately turn sex into rape?

At a guess I think it would be assault, if done during consensual sex, but if you then told him to stop the sex and he didn't it would be rape.

Goosefoot for me, it’s about changing the way we prosecute this sort of crime. Manslaughter can be serious but John Broadhurst’s sentence above was a joke. It is also a lesser charge than murder. If sawdust is correct and you need to prove “intent to kill” for a murder conviction, I can’t see how it wouldn’t be useful to have that law against choking. If you’re found guilty of choking, you can’t claim you didn’t know it was dangerous to put your hands round someone’s neck and squeeze. I would hope that would help to prove intent.

I just want a change to come with the way the UK justice system treats women. The way we are treated in rape and murder trials is disgusting, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that convictions are so low for rape, or that men keep getting away with killing their partners during sex by claiming “rough sex gone wrong”.

Fraggling

Does non-consensual choking automatically turn sex into rape? I think it should.

Heartyrebel - can you share more? It's interesting that even his family have stayed he was weird and inhumane. Tinder moist be a great hiding place for these animals.

fraggling I think in current law, someone doing something potentially violent that you hadn't consented to during consensual sex, would be classed as assault. If you asked him to stop having sex and he didn't, then it would become rape. I think that needs to be changed, but that's how it is now.

He was a compulsive liar, from the first day he was just telling massive unbelievable lies, like he had a 3 million dollar house, a cousin who was an all black, his previous job history didnt check out. He lied about other staff . We got rid of him after a week. When we checked his references we were told he stalked a woman at another job. I think there is way more to come out, as lots of people here know of him.

The cctv released of them in a club, he appeared to go through her handbag when she went to the toilet. It made my skin crawl.

@sawdustformypony her name was Lisa Connolly

Hold on though

If a walks up to me on the street and puts his hands round my throat it's assault
If he squeezes it's a serious assault it attempted murder
If he kills me it's murder

If he does it while we're having sex it's rape

Rape is very hard to prosecute etc and is seen as a special case crime. Lots of people want anonimity for assailant etc

So if a man does the same to me with or without an erection, it changes the nature of the crime. From one/s everyone sees as serious, to one lots of people think should be watered down, women lie etc etc

That's shit.
The assumption of passivity on the part of humans being strangled to death, but only female humans where the man attacking has an erection while he does it, is extremely troubling.

@Fraggling

Women are people who when being throttled to death, even if the start was consensual, will struggle.

I actually stopped struggling when he started suffocating me. It was rape even before the suffocating part, I was struggling to get away and trying to push him etc. When he started suffocating me, I gave one last push on his chest to try to make space but then I stopped it was like I was already dead. I was trying to twist my face to get air, but slowly, and every time I found a little gap where air could come in, I froze and held my face there. It was like I could feel my face and the air was all I could think about, but like the rest of my body didn't exist anymore. I still have flashbacks sometimes to the noise the air made being sucked through a tiny space. But I wasn't struggling anymore, I don't know why. Reason and logical thought didn't exist when I felt like I was dying. I'm sure some women would feel the same as me, and others differently.

Yes i froze as well in similar circs.

The overriding idea that men can't tell women are dying at their hand, that there are no signs, that women are passive and unreadable, in courts and the press reporting, is terrifying though.

If you are strangling someone and they stop moving and go limp that is also a sign that something is amiss, you'd think. Apparently not. Men can't be expected to pay that much attention when they address aroused.

It's all rubbish.

I'm so sorry you were attacked.

Fucker

sawdustformypony her name was Lisa Connolly

Her name was Natalie Connolly

Yeah sorry, not buying it that all these murdering fucks go down for manslaughter I would have no idea as to the verdicts in these cases, except for the accounts in the website we can't consent to this , if the verdicts there are reliable, mostly the juries did not accept the defence that there was no intent to kill (or cause GBH, which is also sufficient for murder when the victim dies), in some cases the defence was convincing and the verdict was for manslaughter. From memory, only 2 listed were acquitted of homicide.

Many of them seem to be getting away with it entirely As above - only 2 from that list (I think I read that somewhere, rather than count them myself.

What John Broadhurst did to Natalie Connolly - what do you think happened there Sawdust for him to get such a paltry sentence?

I wan't at the trial, my understanding as to what happened comes only from the sentencing remarks of the trial judge. sentencing remarks on Broadhurst . Here and elsewhere, one reads accounts of massive internal injuries, massive blood loss, bleach squirted into Connolly's face to cause her pain, but I don't recall any of that in the Judge's remarks. However, he wasn't found guilty of [ordinary] manslaughter, as the CPS had no evidence he killed her. He was convicted of negligent manslaughter - a completely different crime.

BTW sometimes in the remarks, where the Judge writes of 'consent' he's talking of it from the point of view of mitigation in order to arrive at a sentence not from the point of view of any defence - that ship has sailed. Consent is relevant to mitigation only.

Are we supposed to think it didn’t make a difference that he claimed (successfully) that she asked him to do the terrible things he did to her? Her sexual history was raked over in court as well

The evidence appeared to be there (although not gone into any depth in the Judge's remarks) that they both enjoyed sex mixed with pain. If you are going to have a fair trial, then is there any option but to look back and see what she liked ? Coyness has no place in any trial.

Oh well I mean if she liked a bit of pain then that totally sheds a different light on what he did to her.

If I ask my DH to punch me in the face and he does so and breaks my jaw that's on me.

Women like that shit.

Oh well I mean if she liked a bit of pain then that totally sheds a different light on what he did to her.

D'uh....obviously. Are you new to this case ?

Fraggling is being sarcastic.

Fraggling is being sarcastic.

This is not something to joke about.

Pp implied that she asked to have bleach squirted on her face.

She is dead so no one can ask.

It is no different to asking for a point the face. And yet, it is. Because men punch each other in the face it is recognised as violence. What that man did too her is recognised as sexy fun times oh whoops she's dead with horrific injuries.

Fuck that.