No person can consent to their own death, or to injury to cause death

[Dangertime]

Verdict on the Grace Millane case - murder

Justice Moore to the jury:
"Consent is not relevant to murder. No person under New Zealand law can consent to their own death, or to injury to cause death" and Justice Moore tells the jury that "with all that in mind, they have to answer the question - Did Grace consent to be strangled by the accused to the degree and duration of force applied to her neck?"

(Quoting from the live coverage)

www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/117069680/grace-millane-murder-trial-latest-updates

....cos if you think you can consent to your own death (under UK law) - you wouldn't be holding your breath. So.....

I really think that choking during sex should be made illegal. Even if it is done with no intent to harm and both people agree, it is just very dangerous.
I suppose the element that could be difficult to manage would be defining what counts and also how you would determine that it happened. Presumably the intent would not be to stop people from touching their partner's neck at all, and we would not want people claiming that something happened when it didn't. But unless there was some evidence that it did beyond the testimony of the people involved, which would probably be bruising or something, it would be hard to show - so maybe that would really limit it to cases where something very rough happened?

That would be good, it might not influence people much who didn't see what they were doing as dangerous, but maybe it would still cast it in a different light. People used to realise that this kind of activity was risky. What would be really good IMO is if it meant that it was no longer found in porn, but that seems unlikely given how international online porn is. But I think a lot of people are influenced that way.

I guess it makes sense that there is a need to negotiate the legal limits of consent. There's been a social tendency for a while to give more and more room to individuals decisions as the arbiter of what is ok, not just in sexual matters but generally. I think it's coming up against limits in many contexts.

Sawdust what’s your point? In the UK there have been too many men already who have got away with killing their partners and using the “rough sex gone wrong” defence.

I really think that choking during sex should be made illegal. Even if it is done with no intent to harm and both people agree, it is just very dangerous.

Hi Goosefoot the level of harm that you can lawfully inflict during sex only extents to that equal to the level of common assault. The injury above that such as ABH, GBH and death are definitely illegal.

I think what confuses people is that the defendants in these cases are saying they did not 'intent' to kill - and therefore it wasn't murder. What is not disputed by the defense is that that defendant is guilty of the lesser charge of manslaughter.

BadgertheBodger. Sorry I didn't see your post, as I was writing to Goosefoot. My point is set out in that post.

So pleased about this verdict. I do worry that our young women have been brainwashed into thinking they have to like this sort of fringe stuff to be exciting sexual beings. I am in no way sexually naive but I would never allow someone to practice erotic asphyxiation on me but from the evidence in this case I can only assume it is

Yes I agree. It does seem, from what I have gleaned from social media, that if you are not into choking etc you are a 'prude'. Which I think is quite terrifying actually.

I remember being just like Grace. Her Twitter is still open and her tweets really remind me of my early twenties self. I turned 22 whilst travelling the world, I had such a great time.

One huge difference between then and now though was that choking during sex was just. Not. A. Thing. Among young people. At all really.

It saddens me that it is now. Granted I have never tried it, maybe its really amazing, but people managed to have great sex for a very long time without being choked by their partner and didn't have to worry about it 'going wrong' and ending up dead.

I really think that choking during sex should be made illegal.

I totally agree actually. And if you 'accidentally' kill your partner while choking them during sex then you go to prison, tough shit. It's the risk you take when you restrict another person's airways for sexual kicks.

And if you 'accidentally' kill your partner while choking them during sex then you go to prison, tough shit

You do, for manslaughter - maximum sentence is 'life'.

One huge difference between then and now though was that choking during sex was just. Not. A. Thing. Among young people. At all really

Why is it now? Is it porn, fucking 50 shades of crap?

You do, for manslaughter - maximum sentence is 'life'.

Or 3 years and 8 months like John Broadhurst. Granted that wasn't choking, that was being thrown down the stairs and suffering massive internal injuries from having a trigger bottle of carpet cleaner inserted into your vagina, but still 'rough sex gone wrong apparently'.

And he was allowed to appeal his sentence as well.

'Life' my arse.

John Broadhurst

There was no evidence that he caused Connolly's death. His conviction was for being negligent in leaving her on the floor instead of calling for medical assistance.

It's porn, definitely. I missed the whole 50 Shades thing but I don't think it featured choking, just spanking and restraints and shit like that. For me, anyway, blaming a bunch of crap books that were mainly read by women is a way of blaming us for getting killed. "I thought it was what she wanted, yer honour. She liked reading about rough sex so I thought she wanted me to strangle her and throw her down the stairs".

Yeah sorry, not buying it that all these murdering fucks go down for manslaughter. Many of them seem to be getting away with it entirely. What John Broadhurst did to Natalie Connolly - what do you think happened there Sawdust for him to get such a paltry sentence? Are we supposed to think it didn’t make a difference that he claimed (successfully) that she asked him to do the terrible things he did to her? Her sexual history was raked over in court as well. All part of the “rough sex gone wrong” playbook.

1. Claim the victim wanted it and the poor man was just doing as he was asked
2. Paint the victim in as damning a light as possible, rake over her sexual history and do everything you can to make her out to be a depraved sex-crazed temptress
3. Cast doubt liberally on the victim’s character. Bonus points if you can find a good “excuse” for your behaviour, like she was texting another man or planning to leave you
4. Open your eyes wide and tell the court you’ve no idea how she died. One minute it was all consensual fun and light “breath play”, the next; she was just dead.
5. Get away with murder.

I don’t have faith that our (UK) legal system does right by women. We are seeing rape effectively decriminalised and the growing spate of cases where the defence successfully uses “rough sex gone wrong” tells me that something has gone terribly wrong in the system. I’d like to see our courts hand down more verdicts like the one given in NZ for Grace’s murder.

Look at We Can’t Consent to This. It’s horrifying to see all the cases laid out like that.

Wait, no evidence he caused her death? That's clearly bollocks surely.

RIP all those murdered by these evil and depraved men.

There was no evidence that he caused Connolly's death. His conviction was for being negligent in leaving her on the floor instead of calling for medical assistance.

Her post mortem said she died from a combination of alcohol intoxication and her blunt force injuries. Injuries which he caused but said that she had 'consented to'.

He admitted manslaughter by gross negligence because he couldn't really deny the fact that he had left her dying at the bottom of the stairs for hours. Even though apparently he hadn't meant to hurt her so badly that she would die

And apparently she 'consented' to her 40 horrific injuries, even though she was so drunk that it contributed to her death? So how was she able to consent then?

I totally agree actually. And if you 'accidentally' kill your partner while choking them during sex then you go to prison, tough shit. It's the risk you take when you restrict another person's airways for sexual kicks.

Yes.

and your understanding of the law in the UK is ?

Was going to rely, but can see that badger and PeterRouse have already made the point for me.

Yeah sorry, not buying it that all these murdering fucks go down for manslaughter. Many of them seem to be getting away with it entirely.

I think that's a seperate thing though, if people are not being convicted when they should be, or the sentences aren't proportionate.

But I think sawdust's point was that a law specifically against choking would be superfluous, because choking someone to death accidentally while engaged in consensual activity is already manslaughter, has some merit. I think maybe it would already cover that eventuality, even if it really was an accident which does seem to sometimes happen.

Maybe what might make more sense would be making images of it illegal. But then there are all the problems of the internet.

I think 50 Shades did create a lot of interest in general about BDSM, particularly from women who might not be inclined to watch porn and be exposed that way. And it legitimised it as something normal women might really be interested in. I can't see that as a positive.

I don't think it's much to do with 50 shades tbh. The main demographic of 50 shades fans was prosecco drinking, Heart Radio listening women, aged from about 30-50, who love Mrs Hinch and have 'Live, Laugh, Love' wall stickers in their home.

Definitely not young women and definitely not blokes.

This is about young men being consistently exposed to violent porn, and then women having to go along with their warped expectations as a result of that porn.

See, I don’t think a law specifically against choking would be superfluous. I do not think it can ever be safe to put your hands round someone’s neck, and I don’t think men should be getting charged with the lesser crime of manslaughter because there was no “intent to kill”. I think if there was a law specifically prohibiting choking it would be much harder to claim you didn’t know you might harm the person when you put your hands around their neck.

Sorry, will respond to you - out at the mo with DW for a couple of pints. Hopefully tomorrow morning.

I don't think you can legislate for what consenting people get up to in the privacy of their own bedrooms as long as no harm is caused. For example, smacking children is illegal in Scotland but it would be totally futile and impractical to try and ban the practice of spanking.

If harm is caused, then it is right that people are prosecuted.

This was absolutely the right verdict.

I am interested as to how the "you can't consent to your own death" would contrast with the right to end your life through euthanasia in countries where it's currently legal (and IMO should be legal in the UK). Perhaps there would need to be watertight legislation in place which stipulates that another person cannot speak of your consent (i.e. no "she asked for it" defence), but in that case I can see well-meaning relatives carrying out a loved ones wishes, when they are no longer able to, being caught out. It's an interesting legal dilemma (although I fear a bit of a derail!).

Just to throw something else out there that I would like to know people's thoughts on - what about non-consensual asphyxiation/suffocating/choking etc. during what was originally consensual sex? I stumbled across it on the We Can't Consent To This website. I didn't realise this was something that might be common, if that makes sense. I was suffocated during a rape some years ago, and the CPS wouldn't prosecute for lack of evidence, but today I suddenly wondered why suffocating me wasn't brought as a separate charge.
Does non-consensual choking immediately turn sex into rape? I feel like it does deserve something in law in its own right, a specific offence of asphyxiation during sex, with limits to the legality of it clarified somehow. Just a rambling thought stream, sorry.