I spotted a preferred pronouns badge in the wild

[EoinMcLovesCakeJumper]

I was in a shop today when I noticed that the person behind the till was wearing a big badge in the trans flag colours with the words "They Them" on it. It's the first time I've seen one of these and it just set me to wondering what the point of them actually is.

If I'm participating in a retail transaction with a shop assistant, I'm not going to be using their third person pronouns. At most, I might say "you", as in "Could you put it in a bag, please?", but surely I'd only say "he/she/they" if I was talking about that person to someone else? Perhaps I've missed something, but it seems like a way of drawing attention to one's special status in a situation where people might otherwise not notice.

And anyway, if I hadn't spent so much time reading about this stuff on MN, I would probably have assumed that They Them was the name of some band that I hadn't heard of. There was The The back in the day, after all...

@GCAcademic I can absolutely see how your poor husband made this mistake. I will stand in solidarity with him and make the same one always.

Transphobic? Add it to the list, then.

wingsoverscotland.com/everything-is-transphobic/

A word rendered utterly meaningless. Which is unfortunate, as I expect in some instances it's accurate and useful.

Compelling speech is about more than 'trans'. Pronouns are a form of social contract; a shared reference. The referred-to person doesn't get to control the perceptions, beliefs or speech of others.

It's an entirely unrelated matter to racial slurs, that's demonstrating a very confused understanding of how language works.

Can't believe I'm biting, but @Sandsnake maybe if the wearer really cares about pronouns, maybe they should see a really good therapist who will gently guide them to the realisation that they can not and should not compel the speech, thoughts and behaviour of other people.

Yeah, but my point is that I don't really need to know the pronouns of someone who is serving me in a shop, because I won't be speaking to them in the third person. It does, as a pp pointed out, serve to advise me that this person is likely to be actively looking for something to be offended by and it's best to limit any interaction with them to the bare, polite minimum, which may or may not be what they intended.

pyramidbutterflyfish do feel free to report any transphobic comments you can find, but I can't see any myself.

Enforcement of pronouns disadvantages those who don’t have English as a first language

I have a close friend for whom English is not her first language and she mixes up he/she all the time, because the language she grew up speaking doesn't really have pronouns in that sense. It's pretty woke where we are, I'm sort of bracing for some angry young person to throw a fit at her sooner or later. She's not being malicious though, it's not just not something that comes naturally to her even when using the biology based pronouns.

Titania McGrath has a point

Yes, TheProdigal, we have a few staff members at work whose first language is not English, and they are constantly accidentally 'misgendering' people. Most people are unperturbed by this, thankfully ...

It’s not helpful just to call phobic every time people want to discuss a social change that is happening v fast and is often bewildering and baffling. You can start calling green yellow and yellow green but most people will not get why, and find it odd that you don’t believe in green or yellow any more. Or as in the they pronoun in any colour altogether.

I know it sounds strange to compare to colours but when you suddenly redefine what sex you are or gender. Or indeed that neither of these things exist for you. It’s not going be instant for society or everyone to understand, or use the correct address/pronoun the moment they come across it. Even if someone does have a badge.

Goodness every post on MN now has to be written rewritten and edited just in case you accidental mis name someone. Even by accident, because there is no lean way or excuse for anyone else who may get it wrong. No just sudden death.

Prince Andrew wasnt held at gunpoint to say n*gger.
So your argument fails

It's interesting that as part of speech development, children will usually take a while to sort out he and she. They typically go through a phase (can be a few days to several months) where they only use either he or she. Usually they use their own pronoun, so a girl may refer to everyone as 'she'. I never thought about it before, but there are basically thousands of toddlers running around the UK committing crimes.

@pyramidbutterflyfish
What a transphobic thread
Feel free to report any and all transphobic comments that you've seen.
Taking the piss out of enforced speech is not transphobic at all.

"Being kind" got us into this peculiar mess in the first place. If I'm talking about someone as opposed to speaking directly to them, why should that person dictate my speech.

"It’s not helpful just to call phobic every time people want to discuss a social change that is happening v fast and is often bewildering and baffling... It’s not going be instant for society or everyone to understand, or use the correct address/pronoun the moment they come across it. Even if someone does have a badge."

Fair point, I agree. It's just that many of the comments are simply mocking people wanting to have a preferred pronoun, not discussing the change.

But but but.

What if the pronoun is fluid and changes on a daily basis 🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️

I might have a fluid pronoun

Well, why can people not say they find the idea of a preferred pronoun ridiculous? Would you prefer it if they kept it to themselves that they would probably avoid someone who insisted on their compliance in the matter, because they'd consider it an unreasonable demand? Please define the 'transphobia' in the idea of discussing the implications and consequences of these ideas?

Frankly, I think it's extremely unpleasant and 'not nice' to try and compel people to contort a very basic part of language that most people will use without thinking. Humans as sexually dimorphic mammals are pretty good at recognising which sex is which and prounouns have historically related to sex. So people grew up learning language in this way. It's really unpleasant and inconsiderate to try and force people to change what comes naturally just for you. It's like telling people they're hateful if they don't say 'goodbye' when they greet you and 'hello' when they leave.

It's just bullying, basically. So in that sense a badge is a nice useful guide to who is a bully.

I don't think it's nice at all that my friend could potentially be pulled in and written up by HR because her mother tongue doesn't use pronouns the way English does and some young person she works with wants everyone to use pronouns for them that don't match their appearance and potentially didn't even exist when my friend was learning to speak English.

And if that happens, based on the demographics of our area and who tends to use preferred pronouns, it will almost certainly be a young white person on whose behalf my friend (older, female, not white, immigrant) is punished.

I really care about Star Trek but nobody validates it until I go to a convention.

An "Ask me about my pronouns" badge has got me thinking....in order to feel special could I get an "Ask me about my piles" or "Ask me about my weak pelvic floor" badge?

It makes me think Maria MacLachlan should have asked for a woke translator to avoid "contempt in court". She could have been able to speak her truth then the court could have translated it into 2×2=5.

Yeah, He-Man needed to announce his pronouns, because that gender non-conforming hairstyle really confused everyone.

It's just that many of the comments are simply mocking people wanting to have a preferred pronoun, not discussing the change.

Why is it so important for some people to control the speech of others when they're not there?

Luis and Yuki speaking for all of us there.