Millenial butch lesbians and trans rights

[ahumanfemale]

I recently heard Grace Petrie sing (loved her) and was so happy to see an out and proud butch millennial (she's 30), sadly after a tough journey to that place.

Then I heard the words bigot and TERF in a song. I couldn't quite make out what she sang at that point but it appeared to be along the lines of we won't tolerate bigots and TERFs (Sorry, have to use that term in this context).

I had assumed, given that she was comfortable with who she is now and acutely aware of the patriarchy and resulting injustices across society, that she was also GC. But after hearing these words, I suddenly realised that the words she had used to describe her journey to being comfortable in herself both in terms of the clothes she wears as well as her sexuality, were out of a trans activist phrasebook to describe trans' struggles with coming out and fitting into society. As a butch lesbian she was implying that the (butch) lesbian experience was shared by trans women because they were both countering gender stereotypes and therefore she stood against TERFS and bigots.

It seemed utterly crazy that she was in support of the trans rights movement that tells girls just like her that they're actually boys. And even crazier to say she's fighting gender stereotypes and then support the trans movement..against gender critical women! But there she was, on stage, apparently implying just that - there was no open discussion about this and I don't know her from elsewhere.

I've wondered how lesbians, especially women who don't want to be hyper feminine (as determined by heterosexual males), could support the trans movement and this gave an idea, but I've no idea if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Does this ring true for anybody?

The reason I ask is because if we can understand why millenial women loving women can support women haters in women's clothes, perhaps we can change the discussion with them. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind...

I've noticed her crop up on twitter a few times now calling women terfs and telling off lesbians who say they're not interested in penises.
I know quite a few women, myself included, who were quite vocally TWAW until we saw how trans activists behaved to women and we became aware of the misogyny and homophobia in the trans movement.
I know women have raised all these issues with Grace on twitter. She knows about the abuse that lesbians are getting and she just responds with calling them terfs.

I've got a lot of time for Grace Petrie and
her politics, usually. It's sad to hear her using this language. Shes been open about reporting lots of negative feedback from GC feminists, I understand. My sense was that this had fed into her stance. I'm not sure of all the details of how that came about. Others may know more.

I guess my point is that most people especially women, are broadly supportive until they find out what's actually going on and then they're horrified.
But there are a few others who just clamp down twice as hard and go full TRA, Grace appears to be one of those.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown I see that too, but I guess I'm surprised by someone who is technically even more impacted. Women's places/spaces being impinged upon by the trans movement affects all women, but then it's a double whammy for lesbians who are supposed to now like "female di*ck" and triple for butch lesbians who are seen as closeted heterosexual trans men, so don't actually exist according to the logic of the trans movement.

Hannah Gadsby mentioned in Nanette that she'd been told she was a trans man. I know she's also onboard with the trans movement, now too, but I just don't get how, when it affects them, and women like them so hugely.

I think it's a consequence of seeing the world in purely black and white terms. Either you care about social justice, in which case you have to buy in to 'woke' orthodoxy in its entirety, or you're an evil right-wing reactionary. There's no room for questioning or nuance.

I think it's something to do with their perception of Trans as being outside the norm, and being butch women, they've spent a lot of time and energy being out those norms themselves, so they feel the issues are similar. They are sympathetic to people they understand are boldly transgressive of traditional boundaries, because they perceive them to be in 'their tribe'. That's the function of LGBTQ+ here.

The problem is their analysis is puddle deep, and void of anything strongly feminist. It's why you have thought terminating slurs like bigot and T**F. These are intelligent women, but they don't want to examine their assumptions too deeply because that would cast them outside of their tribe, and if you have spent your life being rejected and set outside, once you find your 'home', it takes someone very, very brave to leave it.

Once you address the fact that the vast bulk of the people we are talking about, especially the kind of person who was not born female but considers they are a lesbian, are, from a (real world, fact based, feminist perspective) the opposite of a woman... (Did you follow my sentence there, given the stupid fucking guidelines?) then you realize what a ridiculous shell game this is.

Which is why you have the handy positive affirmation to rewire your plastic brain chemistry 'Transwomen are Women', because you absolutely need to have that kind of soothing mantra to deal with the fact that you are sawing off the branch you're sitting on.

Many of the butch lesbians I know are now seeking mastectomies and taking T. This has been noticeable in my circles for the last couple of years, with support groups and cheerleading and Zoe feminist analysis. Maybe it's a ROGD-like phenomenon in a group of women who are particularly oppressed by patriarchy? I can't get my head round it at all, but it's definitely happening.

One of my best friends is lesbian, does not conform to gender stereotypes, and is very supportive of the trans movement. As PP mentioned, any criticism of trans ideology is immediately seen as siding with bigots and homophobes and a threat to LGBT rights as a collective. I can totally understand why she would feel like that.

I was chatting with her about this only yesterday and she said "well if you're not comfortable getting a smear test from a transwoman then does that mean you wouldn't be comfortable with a lesbian doing it?". To be honest it hurt me that she even had to ask that and obviously I explained to her why I think it's completely different. She had never heard of AGP/ROGD/detransitioners and is fully of the opinion that you can be "born in the wrong body" in the same way you are born gay/lesbian.

It's the "you must accept it when they say they are the same as you"

Which automatically means " they refuse to accept when you say you are different to them "

Grace Petrie is a smug, self- satisfied, tedious, talentless, leftie prat. She has been open about her anti-T*f position for ages so I'm surprised you've only now discovered it.

I'm sad about Grace Petrie. She could be such a brilliant role model but she's been captured by the cult. I first realised this when a woke colleague started enthusiasing about her song . Most of the song is about how girls don't have to conform to gender stereotypes, and the chorus says she's sending a message to her 'Year 11 self' that it's going to be fine, not to worry about not fitting in as a girl. Brilliant stuff. But the second verse (starting at about 1:40) is horrible and gives a very different message.

That's dire but very neatly captures her supreme smugness look at me - breaking all the rules as if no one else has ever done this. She is such a bore.

Petrie has been discussed before on here. She's big pals with Josie Long who is also a smug, self- satisfied, tedious, talentless, leftie prat although talentless in stand up comedy rather than music.

I listened to her song and it just came across as muddled thinking. She seems to partly get it, that gender puts people in boxes. But then falls down into thinking that trans ideology somehow helps this, by encouraging people to get surgery to fit 'the other box.'

She dislikes gender, but somehow supports genderism rather than wanting to abolish gender entirely.

It's mental gymnastics, presumably caused by a lack of critical thinking skills and consuming TRA propaganda.

I found it so disappointing how she discounted Germaine Greer as being the same as Piers Morgan. It makes me angry that all of these young women enjoy privileges that second wave feminists fought for, and now all they can do is mock and slander second wave feminists.

They are disgraceful but unfortunately it's not surprising because universities no platform anyone vaguely gender critical so a lot of them have a misguided view of what gender critical and second wave feminism actually is.

I've wondered if a big factor in this is precisely the fact that many butch lesbians are transitioning. Because that means even those who haven't are likely to have friends who have, and naturally they want to support those friends. It would be difficult to justify a claim that "transmen are men" but not that "Transwomen are women" if you see what I mean. Especially when you have no idea about AGP.

Petrie is tweeting about this thread.

mobile.twitter.com/gracepetrie/status/1196076480608055299?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet.

Hi Grace, just to be clear I thought you were a smug, self- satisfied, tedious, talentless, leftie prat long before your T**f comments

Oh and Grace I just love your twitter profile pic cuddling up with that well known anti- semitic misogynist.

I first voted Labour in 1979 and every election up until 2015. I was a party member but it's people like you and your anti- semitic chum which have resulted in my leaving the party.

Can't say as I've ever heard of Grace Petrie but if she's monitoring allow me to make my position clear.

I only want my smear tests and other intimate exams performed by adult human beings who were determined female at conception and observed to be female at birth.

I could not give a tinker's fart about the sexual orientation of the XX adult because XX adults commit less than 2% of sexual offenses regardless of sexual orientation or 'gender identity'.

I do not want to be examined by any adult who was determined male at conception and observed to be male at birth.

I do not give a tinker's fart about the sexual orientation of the XY adult because XY adults commit 98%+ of sexual offenses regardless of sexual orientation or 'gender identity'.

If I ask for a woman to perform my exam and an XY individual appears I will consider that XY individual appears I will demand they leave and complain vociferously, and yes, we can always tell XY from XX. I do not consent to intimate exams by XY adults. I do not consider XY adults to be women. I do not share your unsubstantiated belief.

My consent is not your to give

That should read I will consider that XY adult to be a man.

Can't say as I've ever heard of Grace Petrie

You're not missing anything but if you clicked on the Black Tie link you don't need to hear anything else by her- all her songs are exactly the same.

Hannah Gadsby mentioned in Nanette that she'd beentoldshe was a trans man. I know she's also onboard with the trans movement, now too, but I just don't get how, when it affects them, and women like them so hugely

Petrie was the support act recently for Gadsby (someone I also find very tedious- but they are a good match for each other)

to anyone who is bothered to read what nasty mumsnetters are feeling

I find gender a hurtful concept that has led to bad things happening in my life

My sex has led directly to bad /evil things in a my life. Adding insult to injury, people use my sex to assign a restrictive gender to me

I am totally happy to destroy gender as a concept. I would also like to destroy sexual violence.

You lose me when you then say that anyone who says they have a specific gender identity that matches the one forced onto me should be treated by me as the same sex as me.

You don't actually every explain why.

I don't want anyone to feel that they have no place in society, not right to live full and happy lives. I also don't want to be forced to live a life according to gender. The moment you insist that I should accept someone with a gender identity of woman as woman like me, you are forcing a gender identity on me. Womanhood for me is just my sex.

I don’t know how I can make it clearer transphobes aren’t welcome at my shows

Grace evidently taking the Liberal Democrat approach to gaining support. since 99% of the population are able to accurately determine a person's sex in 99% of cases Grace is not going to be hitting the big time any time soon with that attitude. A bit sad really. The more visible gender non conforming women the better in my view, even ones that talk nonsense.

Well it seems to me that women like Petrie are no friend to women.

I can only hope that time and experience will lessen her contempt and misogyny.

There's such a complacency amongst the woke. They're lazy thinkers, if they think at all. I'm too sick and tired of their smug, self satisfied smirks to care if they find themselves in 1850 in a decades time.