Millenial butch lesbians and trans rights

[ahumanfemale]

I recently heard Grace Petrie sing (loved her) and was so happy to see an out and proud butch millennial (she's 30), sadly after a tough journey to that place.

Then I heard the words bigot and TERF in a song. I couldn't quite make out what she sang at that point but it appeared to be along the lines of we won't tolerate bigots and TERFs (Sorry, have to use that term in this context).

I had assumed, given that she was comfortable with who she is now and acutely aware of the patriarchy and resulting injustices across society, that she was also GC. But after hearing these words, I suddenly realised that the words she had used to describe her journey to being comfortable in herself both in terms of the clothes she wears as well as her sexuality, were out of a trans activist phrasebook to describe trans' struggles with coming out and fitting into society. As a butch lesbian she was implying that the (butch) lesbian experience was shared by trans women because they were both countering gender stereotypes and therefore she stood against TERFS and bigots.

It seemed utterly crazy that she was in support of the trans rights movement that tells girls just like her that they're actually boys. And even crazier to say she's fighting gender stereotypes and then support the trans movement..against gender critical women! But there she was, on stage, apparently implying just that - there was no open discussion about this and I don't know her from elsewhere.

I've wondered how lesbians, especially women who don't want to be hyper feminine (as determined by heterosexual males), could support the trans movement and this gave an idea, but I've no idea if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Does this ring true for anybody?

The reason I ask is because if we can understand why millenial women loving women can support women haters in women's clothes, perhaps we can change the discussion with them. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind...

Identity is a weird concept to me. How I see myself is one thing, but how others see me (which is what I consider my identity) is dependent on many factors, most of which I have no control over. Their life experiences affect how they see me, how they identify me. My identity will be different for every single person I interact with, surely? I can't get my head around how much control people demand from others now.

I do not want to be examined by any adult who was determined male at conception and observed to be male at birth.

I do not give a tinker's fart about the sexual orientation of the XY adult because XY adults commit 98%+ of sexual offenses regardless of sexual orientation or 'gender identity'.

If I ask for a woman to perform my exam and an XY individual appears I will consider that XY individual appears I will demand they leave and complain vociferously, and yes, we can always tell XY from XX. I do not consent to intimate exams by XY adults. I do not consider XY adults to be women. I do not share your unsubstantiated belief.

My consent is not your to give

THIS.

Does she not realise that if she's not attracted to trans women's testicles that she's transphobic?! (from your screenshots)

Lesbians are only publicly branded "transphobic" if they say they are homosexual or that TW do not form part of their dating pool. This artist (AFAIK) has never said this, nor would I expect her to.

On an individual basis, lesbians are called T*F for declining individual TW as dating or sexual partners - I don't think this artist or anyone would dispute that. Lesbians also face a lot of sexual harassment from "cs" men which is abhorrent too.

But these lesbians tend to be younger (15-25) with no public profile (if any lesbians disagree, please say so - just what I've seen myself). I cannot imagine a successful artist like Grace Petrie experiencing any of this herself, so she may be sceptical about how bad it can be for others.

I know its hard OP. You loved her work so to hear her say T*F (which many of us associate with rape and death threats) is painful. It would be like me hearing an admired artist say "P*I" (a slur used against me) and that I am not welcome at their shows.

How I see myself is one thing, but how others see me (which is what I consider my identity) is dependent on many factors, most of which I have no control over.

Excactly. Thbis idea that some people have a devine right to control other people's perceptions is truly weird.

We are all perceived to be things we genuinely are not from time to time. I am often perceived to be Protestant, which I am not, I'm an atheist who was raised in a religion free family, was never christened, never went to church. I'm objectively, by any measure, not Protestant. I am none the less perceived to be such by others because I went to a non-denominational school. That is how things are in my society. I can rail against it, and have done, try to change attitudes for my children's sake, and have done, but in the real world I cannot stop people making this wrong assumption about me.

If I can't stop people wrongly perceiving me as something that is not clearly visible, that cannot be easily heard, that cannot be smelt on what planet does anyone think they can stop other correctly perceiving them as the sex they actually are? Something that can be seen, heard, smelt? The attempt will always end in disappointment. You can't control the automatic, ingrained by millions of years of evolution, to categorise by sex.

If we want to exclude a class of persons (“males”) from certain spaces (“the female estate”) we must respect Grace Petrie’s right to do the same - to exclude a class of persons (“transphobes” in her view) from certain spaces (her concerts).

Women are a protected class under the equality act and have a legal right to same sex spaces where this is deemed necessary. If we start excluding random classes of people from events/spaces for no good reason, we'll be back to the discriminatory practices of the past.

Yes, identity is a negotiation between you and the world

It is certainly not wholly within your own control

And YY re Billy Bragg

I watched him call Morissey a ‘gammon’ at Victorious last year with my face like this

Come on Bill, you engage with ideas, you don’t just throw around lazy insults. If someone says awful things (and Morrisey does), then explain what your issue is. Using insults as a short hand for ‘I disagree with you’ is the territory of populist politicians

If we want to exclude a class of persons (“males”) from certain spaces (“the female estate”) we must respect Grace Petrie’s right to do the same - to exclude a class of persons (“transphobes” in her view) from certain spaces (her concerts)

It isn't "her" space. It's the venue owner's space.

If we want to exclude a class of persons (“males”) from certain spaces (“the female estate”) we must respect Grace Petrie’s right to do the same - to exclude a class of persons (“transphobes” in her view) from certain spaces (her concerts).

Hang on, the gender critical argument is not that any arbitrary group A can exclude arbitrary group B from certain spaces. It's that women as a sex are vulnerable to men as sex, and in certain circumstances women need single-sex spaces in order to ensure their safety. That's quite different from Grace Petrie's position which is essentially, "people who disagree with me shouldn't be allowed into my space".

Can't see why it matters.

You'd have to pay me a lot more than Grace Petrie could afford to get me to attend one of her concerts.

Why would I want to go to the concert of an immature racist who attacks feminists?

I do get that when you're a teenager, rebelling against the grown-ups ie your mum seems very appealing. We've all been there. It's natural - and even quite sweet in its own way.

But as Grace points out on Twitter, she's not a teenager, she's 32. And she should know better. And should show some respect to the older generations of feminists who fought for the rights she now takes for granted and squanders.

I'd never heard of Grace Petrie, and I assumed she was going to be something like Phranc (showing my age there :o)

She just reminds me of Ed Sheeran! Hugely uninteresting music, singing and lyrics (other than being interesting as regards this thread, i.e. seeming to half "get" a feminist concept of gender before wholeheartedly embracing trans ideology gender stereotypes and hating on feminist "bigots"). Not to spurprised to hear about link with Josie Long who I find teeth-grindingly infuriating, twee and unthinking and who is currently intent on making Radio 4 unlistenable along with Grace Dent.

Sad about Hannah Gadsby too - she seems intelligent In Nanette.

I can only think that society does tend to progress towards the rational, and hold out hope that people like this will get it. It's nonsensical that a load of feminists, including some of the most thinking and longstanding of feminists, would just randomly ally with far-right bigotry out of hate. Trans ideology and self ID make no rational sense and have horrible consequences if taken to their logical extremes - more and more people will come to realise that IMO.

Yes, identity is a negotiation between you and the world

It is certainly not wholly within your own control

Not quite but yes.

You can not negotiate your reality though. That is innate: your race, your sex, your status in terms of whether you have a disability. These are unchangeable. And whether you can negotiate about how you are treated in terms of these things depends on the power your status accords you.

For those who are the wives, siblings or children of those who are trans they do not have that status nor power to negotiate. It is being firmly dictated to them.

For those who are vulnerable women who which to refuse intimate treatment by someone who is a transwoman without their explicit consent, this is not a negotiation. This is being dictated from above.

For women in vulnerable situations - such as refugees or prisons - who do not wish to share accommodation with a transwomen this is not a negotiation. This is being stated as policy for economic and political reasons, from those who do not use these facilities.

All this 'negotiation' is being done by people on behalf of others without consultation or consent. This must be stated.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_formation

Identities are formed on many levels, micro, meso, macro, and global. The micro level is self definition and relationship to people and issues as seen from a person or individual perspective. The meso level is where our identifies are viewed, formed, and questioned from our immediate communities and/or our families. Macro are the connections among and between individuals, issues, and groups as a view from a national perspective. Lastly, the global level is connections among and between individuals, issues, and groups from a worldwide perspective.

On identity formation the idea that identity is purely about the individual only points to narcissism and privilege dictating yourself to others without power.

It is about who controls the micro and who seeks to control the meso, macro, national and global identity through promotion of the idea that individual identity controls the world. This only holds true for those whose individual identity holds power over everyone else.

You can not get away from the influence of the patriarchy in this idea that individual identity is most important: because the essence of it is that male ideas over gender are supreme over the power that women and child possess within society.

It us authoritarian doctrine not a negotiation.

In the late 19th century, classical liberalism developed into neo-classical liberalism, which argued for government to be as small as possible to allow the exercise of individual freedom. In its most extreme form, neo-classical liberalism advocated social Darwinism. Right-libertarianism is a modern form of neo-classical liberalism

Your political education for the day.

Thanks, Red. very interesting (and educational).

Amused to see that my post above is quoted by Grace on Twitter - she doesn't seem to mind or indeed even register that she is attacking other women's rights.

She is, however, miffed that I have described her as racist.

Well, guess what, Grace, anti-Semitism = racism.

And you loudly support an anti-Semite. Guess what that makes you?

And if you don't like being called racist, Grace, don't support a racist.

I'm not going to try to reason with you because you've read this thread and persist in calling people who stand up for women's rights "transphobes" so you clearly don't do reason.

She's getting awfully wound up. If you're still reading Grace, do calm down dear.

I'm not even particularly interested in trans issues- it's the rest of her juvenile, 1970s student politics which is so annoying. I suppose of course her beloved leader never got past 1970s student politics.

I'm so glad I'm done with the Labour party. I don't even feel sad now. I did initially when Corbyn set off on his path of destruction but people like Grace just make me think hell mend the lot of you.

Yes in hindsight that was not a good analogy - comparing apples to orange juice.

Grace I think your support for the trans community is admirable. It doesn’t preclude support for other vulnerable groups also.

May I politely ask, do you support women prisoners [ofab if you will] who want to be housed on female-only estates?

Thousands of omab prisoners now wish to transition and there is no gatekeeping and nothing to stop the system being abused (which it is).

Dedicated trans [& NB] wings are a viable solution and can be tailored to this population, most in the system I know support this.

I know MN is seen as middle class but I grew up poor. Some girls from my school were trafficked and one (that I know of) has spent time inside. It is a genuine issue.

[PS - I know some regard Mr Corbyn as racist (in particular anti-Semitic) but to label all Labor supporters as therefore “racist” seems ridiculous.]