Millenial butch lesbians and trans rights

[ahumanfemale]

I recently heard Grace Petrie sing (loved her) and was so happy to see an out and proud butch millennial (she's 30), sadly after a tough journey to that place.

Then I heard the words bigot and TERF in a song. I couldn't quite make out what she sang at that point but it appeared to be along the lines of we won't tolerate bigots and TERFs (Sorry, have to use that term in this context).

I had assumed, given that she was comfortable with who she is now and acutely aware of the patriarchy and resulting injustices across society, that she was also GC. But after hearing these words, I suddenly realised that the words she had used to describe her journey to being comfortable in herself both in terms of the clothes she wears as well as her sexuality, were out of a trans activist phrasebook to describe trans' struggles with coming out and fitting into society. As a butch lesbian she was implying that the (butch) lesbian experience was shared by trans women because they were both countering gender stereotypes and therefore she stood against TERFS and bigots.

It seemed utterly crazy that she was in support of the trans rights movement that tells girls just like her that they're actually boys. And even crazier to say she's fighting gender stereotypes and then support the trans movement..against gender critical women! But there she was, on stage, apparently implying just that - there was no open discussion about this and I don't know her from elsewhere.

I've wondered how lesbians, especially women who don't want to be hyper feminine (as determined by heterosexual males), could support the trans movement and this gave an idea, but I've no idea if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Does this ring true for anybody?

The reason I ask is because if we can understand why millenial women loving women can support women haters in women's clothes, perhaps we can change the discussion with them. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind...

That's somewhat unhistorical and inaccurate globally. There are still many parts of the world where a failure to follow the dominant local religion is not permitted and historically, that was the norm in many countries too (including our own in the past).

Yes, but in modern western society I can't think of any other religion which does this.

What we should be surprised at is the idea among these people that this intolerance represents 'progressiveness' or is 'left wing'. It's very old-fashioned fascism/religious extremism.

Yes. Totalitarianism masquerading as tolerance and inclusion.

Getting the strong impression that some people resolve the cognitive dissonance caused to them by transactivism by simply not being bright enough to have much of it in the first place. Hines is a shining example but there are others.

Trans bullshit all kind of makes sense if you genuinely can't think through the logical consequences of your beliefs.

Yeah, tbh, I think sometimes we can be a bit too optimistic that people are able to look into the labyrinthine thought process behind transactivism, and have any comprehension or ability to objectively assess what they are discovering. Some people don't because they are time poor, or fearful and so on. Some are vindictively anti-woman and don't care. But some can have it all careful explained and still won't get it, maybe because they just aren't that bright, perhaps mixed with a firm decision to come to the conclusion before they've seen the evidence. That's an incredibly common experience in all human spheres, tbh, not just feminism related issues.

I've often found that the stupidest people are the most stubborn. They form a view based on the evidence presented to them, without digging themselves or asking any questions. Oftentimes, they're told what to think, believe, say. Refusing to learn is indicative of a reduced intellectual capacity, combined with a child's tantruming stomp of the foot, in this case. Folks like Grace are tools. Simply tools, used by puppet masters to crack open safespaces. Its a pity that by the time Grace and her tribe of bootlickers need those safespaces, they'll be long gone.

Yeah, tbh, I think sometimes we can be a bit too optimistic that people are able to look into the labyrinthine thought process behind transactivism, and have any comprehension or ability to objectively assess what they are discovering.

Yep. Most people won't reason themselves out of this. Instead the Overton window will move and their opinions will move with it.

Petrie is just one of many in the hard left who scare me. It's not even particularly her stance on trans issues but the 100% belief that she and her like are right and not only right but they are good as well.

The intolerant hard left is frightening.

I think the vast majority of people don't really spend much time questioning or analysing their decisions and viewpoints on most matters, irrespective of their political leanings.

There are a lot of issues in this world and the human response is to look at our own social and family circles, see what position and opinions they have, and then simply adopt the same. It's not possible to think deeply about every single topic you come across. Unless it starts to affect you in some way, the reality is most people don't have the inclination to look further. So they think 'All my friends are lovely people who would mean no harm, so if they are in strong support of A, then it means supporting A is the right thing to do. If they oppose B then I need to oppose it too.'
I really don't think any more effort goes into this.

Since humans are quite tribal, if another group is in favour of B then it's obvious that they are the bad guys.

You have to have a fairly strong character and mind to re-evaluate your position. Most people do not have this. It's less to do with intelligence and more of an emotive response. If you even consider position A might be wrong or position B (or C) might be right, you risk losing your entire social network and face disapproval and disappointment. If you are already the sort who feels a bit of an outcast and you finally find your 'tribe' then you're even less likely to want to upset that arrangement. You'd lose your friends. People don't want that.

All the evidence and logical reasoning won't work because they haven't formed this opinion based on any such thing in the first place. They see their friends posting memes and articles, who in turn are merely parroting their other friends, and so they will adopt that position too. It's not based on hours of research and reading different material to figure out what the most ethical position might be.

The only strategy that might work is planting a few seeds and giving it time to germinate. Some people won't change their position no matter what, but some others will... It could take months or years, but certain points they come across now will stick in their mind... And under the right circumstances, it will start to bother them and make them question things.
That's why it's so important for such ideologies to prevent its followers from reading material that is critical of their viewpoints or spending too much time interacting and debating the opposition. They have to keep them fearful that bad things happen if you do. The threat of your social group ostracizing you is one of the most powerful methods to keep human beings in line. People underestimate how effective it is.

I really like Grace Petrie but I disagree with the idea that TWAW. I just think stating biological reality is more important than "gender identity", so blokes in dressed and makeup is fine, doesn't make them women though.

When I last saw her she said something like "look at who agrees with you, Trump, Daily Mail". Well, I very much doubt Trump agrees with me on much, and I have always made my mind up on topics independently, so I am not changing just because the Daily Mail gets the odd article right and the Guardian gets it wrong (IMHO).

Bear in mind also that lesbians and younger feminists I have met are liable to keep quiet about gender critical views as they can lose friends over it. It's a strong incentive to keep to the party line.

Yes. It's vair amusing looking at the twitter bios of the people who liked Grace's post. They all have profiles that read like parodies of themselves with compulsory and very earnest recitation of pronouns.

If any of my dcs were that earnest and ghastly, I'd take the piss out of them or tickle them or something until they stopped being that self-obsessed and pompous...and just plain wrong about everything in the way that only the very young can be.

I don't remember being that humourless and joyless at their age.

Earnest and ghastly humourless and joyless sums em up

Fab post, NonnyMouse - think you've got it there. It was really baffling me, but I think you're right. It's like Trumpers or Corbynites. Or white supremacists. It's the tribal. There are indeed people who just do not think for themselves, who just see ethical as = supporting my tribe. They in effect export responsibility for tricky things like being an ethically decent human being to the group.

It's how people can unproblematically support Corbyn despite the overwhelming evidence about anti-Semitism.

Groupthink is strong.

testing - "I really like Grace Petrie".

Why??

Other people have said this and I admit to being mystified. She must write a cracking tune or have a great voice or something because I'm certainly not seeing it in the lyrics or the brains.

Nothing I've read so far has inclined me to try listening to anything she's ever done.

She's very warm as a performer and some of her songs are very affecting, she's a lot like a female billy Bragg live.

I've often found that the stupidest people are the most stubborn. They form a view based on the evidence presented to them, without digging themselves or asking any questions.

Yes, totally agree. All you have to say to people like this is 'This is about inclusion' and they roll over and agree and let the person do whatever they want, without doing any sort of digging or independent thinking of their own. As soon as a lot of people hear the magic word 'inclusion' they seem to just stop asking questions and assume anyone asking for 'inclusion' must have good intentions.

Thanks, testing.

Ironically, she does sound a lot like Billy Bragg in another way - I used to be a big fan of his until he decided that anti-Semitism was a good look. Again, stemming not from deliberate innate racism on his part but from an over-eager enthusiasm to show tribal loyalty to Labour under Corbyn, and to avoid engaging with anything difficult when it was his team that were affected.

I think he did eventually climb down (after a very public kicking for it) but too late; the damage was done. Saint Billy seemed a lot less saintly and a lot more like an uncritical follower after that.

As someone whose parents grew up Jewish in Nazi Germany, I really don't have a whole lot of time or respect for people who farm out their opinions to the majority to decide. We ALL have the responsibility to think for ourselves. "I was just following orders" is not - and never has been - a valid excuse.

I still shan't be listening to Grace - I need more than a warm delivery to get me interested. I need some basic integrity in my musical heroes too.

Grace Petrie has picked the wrong side, she's in complete denial about the blatant disregard and contempt that trans ideology holds for members of the female sex - especially lesbians.

testing - "I really like Grace Petrie"

Why??

I wondered about that too. I know music is subjective but I'm really struggling to see anything to like in Petrie's very basic musicianship, unremarkable voice and limited vocal range and painfully obvious rhyming lyrics.

I admitted to myself 3/4 years ago that I was no longer a lefty. It's a big relief no longer having to bother taking people like Petrie seriously.

Think that's unfair on lefties. I'm undeniably a leftie - but Grace, however she may label herself, is not.

There is nothing left-wing about throwing women under the bus.

Petrie is fully signed up to Comrade Corbyn's insane policies. She certainly looks like a lefty to me.

I’m going to go against the grain here.

I believe certain female-only spaces are vital, eg prisons - transwomen need and deserve their own provision (which can be fully gender-affirming!) separate to the female estate. This makes me a “transphobe” to many trans or c*s people.

If we want to exclude a class of persons (“males”) from certain spaces (“the female estate”) we must respect Grace Petrie’s right to do the same - to exclude a class of persons (“transphobes” in her view) from certain spaces (her concerts).

This is an opportunity to model the behaviour we are asking from trans activists - “we may not agree that we are transphobic (male) - but we respect your right to exclude us from your space, regardless. Peace.”

Also I don’t think anyone actually says to young butch lesbians - you should be a trans guy!” It’s much more subtle -

1. asking for their pronouns (when other women just get “she/her”)

1. “Omg you’ve had top surgery you look great!” (Er, no - just lost weight... again more “trad feminine” women don’t get that)

1. “Hey my little bro just got a news binder but his first one is still decent, wanna try it?”

Also the lesbians in my community who are pressured to date / sleep with trans people are young (teens, early 20s)... and they feel the pressure not only directly from TW but from older LGBs.

2BthatUnnoticed

Does she not realise that if she's not attracted to trans women's testicles that she's transphobic?! (from your screenshots)

"Your sexual preference and identity are yours alone and you should disconnect yourself from anybody policing them."
(Screenshot of Petrie's twitter feed from 2BthatUnnoticed)

Grace, if you're still checking up on this thread, I'm in total agreement with you until the word disconnect, because that's tacitly enabling. Definitely good advice for an individual to disconnect on a personal level, from someone doing it to them. But unless it's never happened, not happening and never will happen to anybody else (which it patently is) then all disconnecting does is let the problem go elsewhere.

It's entirely unacceptable to me that a single girl who is trying to find her place in the world is given the message she might be in the wrong body or would be a bigot for not being attracted to people with testicles who identify as female. And as someone who is as much - if not more - against the patriarchy as you, I would double that for young lesbians. Telling them to disconnect puts the responsibility on the individual female. That is exactly how the patriarchy works.

She puts "your sexual preference & identity are your business alone".

Well, your sexual preference is entirely your choice and only of relevance to people who want a relationship with you. But your identity doesn't exist in isolation, if it had zero effect on others this whole debate wouldn't exist.

If transgender people want society to change its conventions for them, they actually have to engage with our concerns, not just state transphobia.