Millenial butch lesbians and trans rights

[ahumanfemale]

I recently heard Grace Petrie sing (loved her) and was so happy to see an out and proud butch millennial (she's 30), sadly after a tough journey to that place.

Then I heard the words bigot and TERF in a song. I couldn't quite make out what she sang at that point but it appeared to be along the lines of we won't tolerate bigots and TERFs (Sorry, have to use that term in this context).

I had assumed, given that she was comfortable with who she is now and acutely aware of the patriarchy and resulting injustices across society, that she was also GC. But after hearing these words, I suddenly realised that the words she had used to describe her journey to being comfortable in herself both in terms of the clothes she wears as well as her sexuality, were out of a trans activist phrasebook to describe trans' struggles with coming out and fitting into society. As a butch lesbian she was implying that the (butch) lesbian experience was shared by trans women because they were both countering gender stereotypes and therefore she stood against TERFS and bigots.

It seemed utterly crazy that she was in support of the trans rights movement that tells girls just like her that they're actually boys. And even crazier to say she's fighting gender stereotypes and then support the trans movement..against gender critical women! But there she was, on stage, apparently implying just that - there was no open discussion about this and I don't know her from elsewhere.

I've wondered how lesbians, especially women who don't want to be hyper feminine (as determined by heterosexual males), could support the trans movement and this gave an idea, but I've no idea if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Does this ring true for anybody?

The reason I ask is because if we can understand why millenial women loving women can support women haters in women's clothes, perhaps we can change the discussion with them. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind...

I've never heard of Grace Petrie before. I looked at the lyrics of her song 'Black Tie'.

I don't really understand how she can claim to oppose narrow gender stereotypes that mean that girls have to dress in a girly way, as she appears to do at the start of the song, and then end the song by attacking gender-critical feminists...who are also critical of narrow gender stereotypes (the clue is in the name). I don't get how she thinks she isn't herself gender-critical.

I also don't get how she can think that that she is on the same side in the discussion as transwomen, as TRA ideology states that anyone who feels most comfortable in the clothing of the opposite sex literally IS the opposite sex, ie that gender stereotypes are real and immutable.

Either she believes that gender stereotypes are meaningless rubbish and everyone should wear what they feel comfortable in, OR she believes that gender stereotypes are fixed and underpin people's essential gender identity, ie you are what you wear. She can't have it both ways. Either she criticises gender or she believes it is true and real.

So which is it, Gracie? Are you a man as you choose to wear stereotypically "men's" clothing? If not, then why is someone who is XY but chooses to wear a dress really a woman, in your head? If you think clothing doesn't matter, and everyone should just wear what they feel comfortable in, then how can anyone be defined by this??

I genuinely do not get it.

If she's reading this, Gracie, please come and explain - genuinely interested to hear your views.

Yes, Grace. Show us your thinking. Or should that be "show us you're thinking"?

I would guess would contend that she feels like a woman inside

and then you have to try to get an explanation of how women feel inside, or how men feel inside, which is of course never forthcoming

and then I have to go for a lie down

It really should be self evident that if you can't easily explain the reasoning behind your beliefs, maybe you shouldn't be hurling sexist slurs on the internet at people who challenge them

But how does a woman feel ?

Wish someone could explain that ?

This woman feels knackered. And disillusioned. Angry. Disappointed. Horrified. Sick. Fed up. Disrespected. Dismissed. Discarded.

BernardBlack

OK, so you think she'd argue that her special female "essence" is what makes her female? Not the fact that she has XX chromosones, a vagina, breasts, periods, a uterus that can produce and birth babies etc?

So you think she'll argue that people who have XY chromosones, a cock and balls, who produce sperm, can have this special female "essence", too?

Is that right, Gracie?

If so, what IS this special female "essence" that is not based on biology, then?

Because I'm a woman and I know that only because of aforesaid XX chromosones, vagina, breasts, periods, babies that I've made in my uterus and given birth to, etc.

But I don't have any magic female "essence" outside of my biology.

So what is this magic female "essence", then? And how can it be strong enough to override biology and indeed even reverse it - yet be completely invisible and something that most of us do not believe we have at all?

If this "essence" ISN'T based on sexual stereotypes like what clothes people prefer to wear, and it ISN'T based on biology, WHAT IS IT BASED ON THEN??

How am I supposed to know if someone is trans or not? Could I be trans?

I don't feel like a man - but I don't feel like a woman either. I have female biology - but if biology counts for nothing, then how do I know I'm not actually a man? How does anyone know?

I like wearing trousers. I also like wearing a skirt. Does my gender change depending on what I feel like wearing that day, then?

Genuine question - if biology ISN'T the deciding factor in who is male and who is female, and clothing isn't either, then what are we left with??

And what are trans people transing from or to? If biology is irrelevant, why are people taking hormones and having major surgery to change it??

I dunno xxyzz I spent most of my teenaged years thinking there was something wrong with me because I didn't (and don't) feel like a woman inside, so I'm probably not a good person to ask....

Genuine question - if biology ISN'T the deciding factor in who is male and who is female, and clothing isn't either, then what are we left with??

Feelings and belief. If you think of it like a religion it sort of makes sense.

Some people apparently have a feeling or a sense of being male or female or neither which is completely unrelated to their actual sex, and also unrelated to how they dress or behave. Asking them how they know this is like an atheist asking a Christian how they know God exists.

I think that people should be allowed to have whatever religious beliefs they want to. But how this religion differs from others is that its followers are trying to force us all to follow it.

Its a cult. Brainwashed, brain dead people in brainwashed, brain dead organisations complacently ticking off their "inclusion" boxes, patting each other complacently on the back, whilst the world burns down around their ears. Its somehow worse when its done by women, like that ignorant police woman and her stupid rainbow epaulettes. I don't know if they're evil, stupid or if they're just hoping that by the time the rest of us have been eaten, the appetite will be satiated.

If feeling female is what matters, and you can only access female safe spaces if you feel female then anyone wanting a female only safe space by definition feels female? So it's not about the heels and make up, it's about where you feel safe?

Of course this then means that there is no protection for people united by a common biology who appear to get mistreated because of that biology

I don't know who Grace Petrie is but I'm constantly devastated how little empathy people have for females, even other women.

Linked here is a video of a young girl, a promising swimmer who is fighting back tears because her rights, her privacy and her dignity have been stripped away and violated. There is a strong chance she will abandon her loved sport now.

Compare that to the joyous reaction of a boy who has pushed and pushed to violate every last boundary that the girls have. Witness him backslapping with an older male after they colluded to allow him access to naked girls. This is no different to Metoo or any other kind of rape culture.

Women and girls are worth so little it's sickening and terrifying.

twitter.com/ElmMcO/status/1196056350314422274

Interesting that the twitter feed assumes my gender and pronouns. Could that be they were chosen based on my username, which refers to my biological sex? Or that I'm on mumsnet, therefore a mother and they've assumed I'm a woman? Isn't that rather transphobic if you believe that mothers can be male people, or non binary people? Interesting, given that sex is irrelevant and eau de gender is what it's all about.

Grace Petrie is a smug, self- satisfied, tedious, talentless, leftie prat. She has been open about her anti-T*f position for ages so I'm surprised you've only now discovered it. I'd never heard of her before! I actually enjoyed some of her songs. But then again, until womanhood was an indescribable essence, I was a leftie too.

I don’t know how I can make it clearer transphobes aren’t welcome at my shows That's cool. As self-ID is so important, and I don't identify as a transphobic, then I'll keep coming. :)

It is rather odd to me as an old-timer, that someone would uninvite/cut-off/exclude/whatever someone who is clearly trying to understand something by posing a question. Especially when despite apparently being so very wrong, is 'so close' (according to her twitter feed). In my old fashioned way of thinking, that is exactly a someone to have dialogue with. I know that this is how things are now, but it's still very strange to me. I asked the question to understand more. Instead of posting on twitter, Petrie could have come on here and told me I'd got it all wrong and pointed me in the 'right direction' as she sees it.

I've had experience talking with some hardliners of different religions and not one of them has shut dialogue down. We were never going to agree, but we could each learn more about why the other thought they way they did. Despite very, very conservative ideas, there was an openness to discussion. It's so odd that people who consider themselves so open are more closed to discussion than the men who thought married women shouldn't leave the house without either their husband or mother in law!

Perhaps part of the brainwashing includes convincing people that terfs have no ears and no brains so you should not dirty yourself talking to them?

She's clearly part of a cult if she doesn't distinguish between Stephonknee and a HSTS. Acceptance without exception means embracing sexually motivated individuals who think womanhood is an arousing costume.

My daughter is like this lesbian and proud but totally blinkered when it comes to trans issues they are in the club feminists are the enemy except her mom because we dont discuss "the topic" at home she is at university I'm hoping when she gets a job she will grow up enough to work out reality

OldCrone - "how this religion differs from others is that its followers are trying to force us all to follow it."

That's somewhat unhistorical and inaccurate globally. There are still many parts of the world where a failure to follow the dominant local religion is not permitted and historically, that was the norm in many countries too (including our own in the past).

So I don't think we should be in any way surprised that there are people who will not tolerate any challenge to their religious orthodoxy.

What we should be surprised at is the idea among these people that this intolerance represents 'progressiveness' or is 'left wing'. It's very old-fashioned fascism/religious extremism.

ovahere OMG. I'd read articles but not seen that video. How can anybody think it's ok? The girls need to identify as non-binary or agender now so that they can get a separate changing area. The precedent has been set for accommodating the gender identifications of students.

Lol, ahumanfemale, at wanting to attend her shows! Nothing I read on that twitter thread made me go ooh yes, can't wait to pay money to go and see this person!

I've never heard of her before and am struggling to see the appeal.

Grace just seems to come across as a bit thick, hence her embrace of Corbyn aka Mr Anti-Semitic Brexit Guy.

Ah well.

Also, a bit cowardly. Or she'd come on here and defend her views.

She can't - as they clearly make no sense.

@FloralBunting
I think it's something to do with their perception of Trans as being outside the norm, and being butch women, they've spent a lot of time and energy being out those norms themselves, so they feel the issues are similar. They are sympathetic to people they understand are boldly transgressive of traditional boundaries, because they perceive them to be in 'their tribe'. That's the function of LGBTQ+ here.

..These are intelligent women, but they don't want to examine their assumptions too deeply because that would cast them outside of their tribe, and if you have spent your life being rejected and set outside, once you find your 'home', it takes someone very, very brave to leave it.

This makes an awful lot of sense. Thanks. It's incredible that they don't realise that it's people like us who are the ones saying 'fuck the patriarchy and gender stereotypes and be who you want'. That being critical of the gender stereotyping that caused them so many problems (as it has other women too) is seen as hateful against them!

What we should be surprised at is the idea among these people that this intolerance represents 'progressiveness' or is 'left wing'. It's very old-fashioned fascism/religious extremism

Not saying trans ideology is left wing, it's both hyper individualistic and hyper capitalist, but left wing totalitarianism is hardly unheard of either.

What it most definitely isn't is any kind of liberal. It is the most authoritarian movement I can think of arising in my lifetime barring the most extreme of islamist positions.