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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I hope my daughter is a lesbian.

377 replies

RhinoR · 17/11/2019 10:59

She's 10.

She says she doesn't like boys. That one day she will get a girlfriend. She says she has a crush on a girl in her class.

This has me hoping she will indeed be gay.
From my own experiences to those I read daily about young women being abused, coerced and degraded by their partners I fear so much for my daughter going through such things.

Women aren't perfect of course, being gay won't protect her from heartbreak and maybe some abuse at the hands of her partner but I daresay I would sleep better at night.

Is that terrible of me?

OP posts:
Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 20/11/2019 08:28

That might be the view of the court, I don't know, but it's not my view. I've repeatedly said the exception is where there is danger or abuse involved.

Separating a child from a parent because of abuse is entirely different to planning to conceive a child that will not have a relationship with a parent.

Gay men want to have children yet many posters on here disagree with surrogacy. So are you saying that a lesbian women's desire to have a child matters but a gay man's desire to be a parent doesn't?

Someone earlier said that there are ethical ways for a gay man to be a parent. Why can't everyone who needs donor gametes use those same ethical means?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 20/11/2019 08:37

The journey to have a child will end at different points for different people. For many it will end when they have a child. For others they won't ever have the chance because of illness. Lots of women cannot carry a child, either because of recurrent miscarriage or they've had a hysterectomy. Is their need to have a child any less important than a lesbian woman's need?

TheSandman · 20/11/2019 09:12

This whole 'children must have a relationship with a father!' is the kind of argument, btw, that keeps women and children trapped by Family Court in relationships with their abusers.

And would - again taking things to logical extremes - mean that a rape victim who conceived as a result of a random assault - (ie they weren't in an abusive relationship but raped by a total stranger) who, for whatever reason, bore the child, would be forced to have their child form a 'relationship' with their rapist.

That can't be right.

Branleuse · 20/11/2019 09:18

Gay men want to have children yet many posters on here disagree with surrogacy. So are you saying that a lesbian women's desire to have a child matters but a gay man's desire to be a parent doesn't?

Its not that it doesnt matter or that its not a real feeling, but that two men dont have capacity to gestate a child, so cant have one without basically buying one.
A lesbian can have a baby by inseminating herself with sperm, which is not equivalent at all to surrogacy.
Ive got no issue with gay men adopting. I do have issue with anyone buying and selling babies, which is what surrogacy usually is. Thats whether they are gay or straight.

thatdamnwoman · 20/11/2019 10:40

oh, and to get back to the OP's OP. My daughter came out when she was 12 or so. I'd like to think she'll meet a nice woman get settled and have kids one day.

It's great that straight parents are not just open to their child being homosexual but welcome it. How about also letting go of your straight ideas of what makes a good life – because there are lots of lesbians out here who are grateful every day that they don't have children and don't have the traditional relationships they observe all around them.

Just think for a moment of all the women now and in history who've inspired you. I bet that many of them will have led unconventional lives that won't have fitted the 'settled with a partner and children' picture. Only yesterday I heard a programme about George Eliot, who is a prime example. Your daughters may be budding academics who will find their bliss in their work and the social connections that stem from that. They may be budding artists and writers or businesswomen or politicians who want to focus on those aspects of their lives rather than on domestic life. Can't remember who said the pram in the hallway is the enemy of good art but it's still true.

I'm the unconventional lesbian daughter of a women who wanted nothing more for me than straight marriage and motherhood. She was a kind woman but rigidly conventional and unimaginative. I wasted the first 30 years of my life trying to please her. Please don't do the same to your daughters.

TheSandman · 20/11/2019 10:49

It's great that straight parents are not just open to their child being homosexual but welcome it. How about also letting go of your straight ideas of what makes a good life – because there are lots of lesbians out here who are grateful every day that they don't have children and don't have the traditional relationships they observe all around them.

Just because I'm (a man) married to a woman and have kids doesn't mean I'm straight Smile and, if it's ok for lesbians and gay (and bisexual) men to want kids, it's ok for them to want grandchildren too - just like heterosexuals.

But yes. I agree. Having kids shouldn't be an obligation for anyone - I actively avoided it till I was in my 40s - and then fell into it like a duck to water.

TheSandman · 20/11/2019 10:53

Can't remember who said the pram in the hallway is the enemy of good art but it's still true.

God isn't it just! I'm the SAHD and it's taken me 15 years to get my drawing skills back to where they were before my DD arrived on the scene. She's now a better painter than I'll ever be but I can still draw rings round her.

FaFoutis · 20/11/2019 10:58

the pram in the hallway is the enemy of good art

Yes.

JanesKettle · 20/11/2019 11:34

My lesbian dd wants kids; I'm not fussed either way.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 20/11/2019 11:39

Its not that it doesnt matter or that its not a real feeling, but that two men dont have capacity to gestate a child, so cant have one without basically buying one.

And 2 women don't have the capacity to conceive a child on their own.

Either having a child is a right, as many posters have said, in which case everyone should have that right or its a want.

Which is it?

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 20/11/2019 12:25

One involves renting the inside of a woman's body at considerable risk to the woman and with lifelong consequences, and putting her at enormous discomfort for 9 months, plus the pre-conception treatment, plus the port-partum period. All so a man can buy a baby with his DNA.

The other involves a man spunking into a cup. Absolutely zero risk or discomfort to him, no invasive medical treatment.

Not the same really, is it.

Goosefoot · 20/11/2019 12:41

In every discussion on surrogacy that happens here, there are two arguments involved. One is around the idea of renting women's bodies. The other is around the rights of children to know their biological parents, including the woman who carried them, and the idea of buying and selling children.

There are plenty of people who see sperm or egg donation as a problem in itself, it's quite clear from the things people say in those discussions. Both from the POV of not knowing the father or mother and also as being too similar to the idea of buying a baby.

It's also repeated again and again in such discussions that the idea of having a right to a child is not one that many regular posters here find compelling, quite the opposite really. So I'm a little surprised to see so many here who think this is a novel perspective.

Goosefoot · 20/11/2019 12:54

This whole 'children must have a relationship with a father!' is the kind of argument, btw, that keeps women and children trapped by Family Court in relationships with their abusers.

That's a straw man. No one here has said that in all circumstances kids should have a relationship with heir biological father.

They've said that purposefully engineering a situation where they won't is wrong, it's taking something important away from the child, purposefully, and the justification for that is what is good for the mother.

Lesbians aren't unique in having barriers to having biological children, nor are gay men, many people, including those who are simply single, face the same difficulty. Suggesting that depriving lesbians of children is homophobic, which many seem to be saying, is bizarre, because it's not about being a lesbian, its about being one of many people, with all kinds of characteristics, who have the same difficulty. No one is targeting lesbians any more than they are targeting people with no partner at all, or heterosexual couples with male infertility. It's a question of the rights of children.

Scarlett555 · 20/11/2019 13:57

Goosefoot your homophobia is really showing.

You are seriously claiming lesbians shouldn't have equal rights with straight women? Of course lesbians should have the 'right' to have a child, just as they should have the right to get married, foster and adopt.

Every single study on outcomes for children raised by gay couples showed they are in fact happier and more well adjusted than the average child.

You really think a civilized, progressive society should say to lesbian couples 'tough shit, you shouldn't be allowed to breed because of your sexuality.'

Shameful!!

ArthurandJessie · 20/11/2019 14:03

Yeah my mum left my dad for a woman and the domestic abuse was horrific (physical )but what I found more terrifying as a child was the emotional abuse ! She's ten she will go through phases maybe she will be a lesbian but I remember being ten and not really understand the difference between admiring someone and fancying them if that makes sense ?

threesecrets · 20/11/2019 14:05

OP I agree.

Scarlett555 · 20/11/2019 14:06

A few studies on the outcomes of children raised by same sex couples

SPOILER: They are doing just the same, if not better, than any other child

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12361102/

[[https://www.mother.ly/news/lesbian-parents-impact-kids-mental-health
www.mother.ly/news/lesbian-parents-impact-kids-mental-health]]

[[https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/02/06/children-raised-by-same-sex-couples-do-better-school-new-study-finds/
www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/02/06/children-raised-by-same-sex-couples-do-better-school-new-study-finds/]]

[[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-big-questions/201006/lesbians-raise-happier-kids
www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-big-questions/201006/lesbians-raise-happier-kids]]

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 20/11/2019 14:07

Scarlett aren't those saying gay men shouldn't shameful too?
If you're saying lesbian's have a right to have a child (rightly) then surely gay men have the right to have a child too?
You can't pick and choose your belief to suit you. Some homosexuals but not others.
Either people who are homosexual have the right to be parents or they don't.
(I do think both lesbian's and gay people have the right to be parents for the record)
Just pointing out you can't have it both ways.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 20/11/2019 14:08

Sorry, that should be a general you reading back wasn't specifically at you, meant views on the thread shown)

Scarlett555 · 20/11/2019 14:17

Wotcha obviously the circumstances surrounding male gay parenting make a difference. I don't agree with women being coerced into surrogacy by gay couples, especially if they want to prevent the woman breastfeeding.

In most other circumstances then of course gay men should have the right to be parents. If this is via a legal surrogacy arrangement with the woman's full agreement then sure. Tom Daley and Elton John for example

Stopthisnow · 20/11/2019 15:02

I have just read this thread and agree with OP and some other posters, I have experienced lesbophobia from a fairly young age (I don’t believe there is a single lesbian who hasn’t experienced it in one way or another), as well as being aware of it before that, e.g. knowing that is looked down on and considered dirty, shameful etc, but the personal benefits far outweigh the social negatives. There also seems to be a belief from some posters that no sexuality in particular is encouraged in society, when the truth is that everyone is encouraged to be heterosexual, the very fact that homophobia exists at all is evidence of this. Not to mention that lesbians are currently being sold the lie that they are heterosexual men trapped in the wrong body.

Despite all the NAMALT assertions, and the slurs that lesbian women are just as likely to be abusive as men, the reality is clear that it is males who commit the majority of violent and sexual crimes, not females of any sexuality. The idea that lesbians are somehow just like heterosexual men is lesbophobic and misogynistic imo, and as others have pointed out also ignores that there is a physical power differential between males and females, which simply does not exist between females.

Likewise, they seem to ignore basic feminist analysis that there is also a societal power differential that exists between males and females, which does not exist between females due to our sex. Males are clearly valued more than females due to the fact they are born male, and sex roles exist to ensure both sexes keep the hierarchy alive. Both males and females internalise those messages to some degree, so the male will always have more power in a mixed sexed relationship, it is wishful thinking to believe otherwise imho. Since this power dynamic does not exist in same sex partnerships, there is far more potential for them to be equal and mutually respectful, the only issue imo is the effects of internalised misogyny and lesbophobia that some lesbian women may not have resolved.

Moreover, feminists have written that due to us living in a male dominated society, sexual arousal itself in mixed sexed relationships tends to based on eroticising male dominance and female submission, to one degree or another. Although females in same sex relationships can also internalise and enact those dynamics, e.g. in S&M, role playing etc, there is far more potential for an equal partnership in same sex relationships, which is much more difficult in mixed sex relationships, at least in the male dominated society we currently live in.

I recognise that all of the issues I have faced as a lesbian in this society (not being represented in the media, negative stereotypes, lesbophobia from others, internalised lesbophobia, lesbians being objectified by men etc) is down to the fact that we live in a male dominated society, set-up by men as a group to benefit them. Lesbians are made into pariahs because we are not fulfilling the purpose men as a group have for us. Gay men are often despised because they are not taking their ‘rightful’ place on top of the societal hierarchy, and are thought to be ‘lowering’ themselves (and the male sex) by allowing themselves to be sexually used, as male dominated society insists that is the role women were created to fulfill.

I think the romanticised image of males that girls are bombarded with from a young age, particularly in the media e.g. in fairy stories, songs, romance films etc, is a problem, as girls come to believe that their happiness comes from partnering with males. I think ideally girls should be given more realistic images of males and informed (in age appropriate ways) of the reality of what males as a group have historically done (and continue to do) to females as a group. Ultimately, I think girls should be taught to question the romanticised image of males that is so prevalent, and the idea that partnering with males is the key to their happiness. That is not teaching girls to ‘hate men’ that is offering a realistic image of males, rather than the idealised image that is constantly pushed. I also think girls should be taught to value themselves and other females more, that can’t be done if male dominance is ignored, or swept under the rug with statements like NAMALT.

What sexuality would look like if we didn’t live in a male dominated society we can never know. However, currently in our male dominant society we have romanticised images of males drip fed to females from a young age and enforced throughout society, questioning of the romanticised view of males seen as hating males, sex roles that are enforced onto each sex, females seen as inferior (so they grow-up valuing themselves and each other less than they value males), societal pressure on females to partner with males, negativity towards same sex partnerships, and the eroticisation of male dominance and female submission. If these things no longer existed in society, in other words if we didn’t live in a male dominated society, I seriously doubt that as many females would grow-up desiring to partner with males as they do in our current male dominated society. I think many assume that how society is under male dominance is how society would naturally be without it and that is not necessarily so.

Regarding the surrogacy discussion, as others have pointed out gay males do not risk anything by hiring a woman’s womb, the risks all fall on the woman who carries the child, so it not the same as a lesbian woman taking the risks to her own health by conceiving a child by sperm donor. I think posters who are framing it as equal rights for gay men as for lesbian women, are ignoring the biological differences between males and females, the same way MRA’s do when they claim that feminists wanted equal rights, so they should compete against men in sports, regardless of the obvious physical differences, it is disingenuous.

TheSandman · 20/11/2019 15:02

I don't agree with women being coerced into surrogacy by gay couples, especially if they want to prevent the woman breastfeeding.

I don't think anyone should be coerced into anything (apart from buying me chocolate).

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 20/11/2019 15:05

The other involves a man spunking into a cup. Absolutely zero risk or discomfort to him, no invasive medical treatment.

You are only focusing on the parents. What about the child? And you are so dismissive of men yet seem to be only too happy to use them when you want a child. Why is that? Maybe they don't want to just spunk into a cup. What benefit is it to them to do it?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 20/11/2019 15:11

You are seriously claiming lesbians shouldn't have equal rights with straight women? Of course lesbians should have the 'right' to have a child, just as they should have the right to get married, foster and adopt.

No.one has the right to have a child. What are you talking about?

If it is a right then everyone should have that right which in some cases will have to.involve a surrogate, which many are against.

Those of us arguing against gamete donation are saying it should apply across the board. How is that homophobic or against lesbians? Yes, lesbian women should have equal rights with straight women. Why are you saying we don't think that? Straight women shouldn't use anonymous sperm donors either, imo.

So, equal rights. And I am certainly not arguing that gay and lesbian parents aren't great parents. Of course they should be allowed to foster, adopt or raise their own children. Absolutely. I just don't agree with anonymous donation of gametes. That is in no way saying that gay people are bad parents.

Velveteenfruitbowl · 20/11/2019 15:15

I’ve never been treated poorly by a man I know (a stupid amount of street harassment though). I think it’s more a question of the kind of person you are and the kind of people you associate with than the sex of your partner that puts you at risk.

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