I hope my daughter is a lesbian.

[RhinoR]

She's 10.

She says she doesn't like boys. That one day she will get a girlfriend. She says she has a crush on a girl in her class.

This has me hoping she will indeed be gay.
From my own experiences to those I read daily about young women being abused, coerced and degraded by their partners I fear so much for my daughter going through such things.

Women aren't perfect of course, being gay won't protect her from heartbreak and maybe some abuse at the hands of her partner but I daresay I would sleep better at night.

Is that terrible of me?

Just to add more fuel. there seems to be some confusion over what a feminist is. A feminist is someone who supports women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. That means that we accept that we are equal to men, not better, not worse, we are equal. Now, some men are faster than me, some men are stronger than me and some men are smarter than me. But we ALL have equal worth as human beings.

Of course lesbian and gay people can be great parents but I think that any child should have a relationship with both biological parents.

But this would mean that you would have to establish who every child's biological parents are. And at birth preferably. Plenty of children are conceived by women with men other than their partners. Often without their male partner ever realising.

Do you think the child's right to have a relationship with both biological parents is more important than the relationship between the people bringing it up?

If child father of a child is NOT the male bringing him up - even though he thinks he is - should you tell him just so the child can have a relationship with its real father?

That'll bring LOTS of joy and harmony to the world.

Every child has the right to.know who their biological parents are. It's important for medical history, risk of genetic illnesses as well as knowing their extended family and possible half siblings. Theres a thread running about a woman attempting to sue the NHS because they didn't tell her she was at risk of developing a terminal genetic illness and the discussion is centering on the importance of people knowing family medical history.

So, yes I personally think that all children should have a relationship with their biological parents, regardless of who the child is living with, unless there is abuse or danger of abuse.

I can't see any good reason for not doing this and certainly no reason that benefits the child rather than the mother.

Maybe we need a separate lesbian section of Mumsnet, where lesbians can discuss the things that matter to them without the background crackle of homophobia?

The background crackle in this thread is more like a freaking roar.

Nobody needs to defend heterosexuality in a thread about being happy to have a (possibly) lesbian dd. Heterosexuality is not under attack in any way, shape or form, never has been, never will be.

FYI, the outcomes for children in a lesbian two-mum family are pretty darn good.

Maybe we need a separate lesbian section of Mumsnet

There is already an LGBT parents' section which no one uses.

So, yes I personally think that all children should have a relationship with their biological parents, regardless of who the child is living with, unless there is abuse or danger of abuse.

A fine ideal but it is going to cause an awful lot of grief and upset in the real world.

It would maybe mean many women openly admitting to their kids and their partners that they had had affair/s.

I can't see it happening no matter how 'right' it may be.

so you're effectively saying lesbians shouldn't be allowed to have children??! Or it's less than ideal for them to do so than straight women. Honestly didn't think attitudes like that still existed! Must live in a bubble with my lesbian pals and our lovely, well adjusted children.

No, I am making an argument about the rights of children, who are people just as much as lesbians are, and not property of their parents, biological or otherwise.

What I am saying is that children, barring circumstances that are unavoidable or harmful, have a right to know and have a relationship with their biological parents. That is a statement about the rights of children.

You seem to be saying that can't be true, because if it was, it would impact the options for lesbians and gay men to have kids. I'm not sure how that's logical.

Do you think the child's right to have a relationship with both biological parents is more important than the relationship between the people bringing it up?

The former statement is about the rights of the child. The latter statement is about the people in the relationship.

The rights of children with regard to parentage is already well established, it's been discussed in the adoption community for years and has changed a lot of rules and protocols around adoption and also international adoption. It's almost inevitable I think that these kinds of rulings and practices will start to impact other children who are conceived through ai, ifv, etc.

It's funny when you see a poster posting a lot on a thread and posting some very weird homophobic stuff, and the other thread you recognise their name from is one where they were relentlessly posting in defence of the virtues of some violent, degrading and dangerous (heterosexual) sex acts, which harm women and girls. Can't help but join the dots.

So for those reading and wondering about the very warped direction this thread has taken, especially the homophobic one on a Feminism board, of all places, then just remember that often the people posting her are not feminists. They come here specifically because they are not feminists.

Back to the thread.

Yes, OP, I get it. Being a lesbian makes it statistically less likely that your DD will be raped, or seriously injured/killed by her partner.

Yes, roads are dangerous, but you're more at risk of a serious accident on a motorcycle than in a car, so my DD being in a car would make me less anxious about that particular risk.

There are other difficulties that lesbians encounter though, nobody is saying it's an easy path, if that's the one she ends up on. OP isn't going to influence her sexuality , obviously.

Regarding all the "I know a lesbian who was abused!" and "I'm straight and I've never been abused!" posts, anecdata is not data. 1/3 women has suffered domestic abuse from a male partner. 1 in 5 is raped/SA. 95% of violence is committed by men. 2-3 women a week killed by men (if lesbian relationships were as violent then there would be at least a few a year where women were killed by their female partner).

Dadshere, you can support gay men being parents without supporting the exploitation of vulnerable women in surrogacy. There are other, far more ethical, paths to parenthood.

My DS aged 9 hates girls. In the game of life he always puts a blue peg as his life partner as he doesn't want any girls. Doesn't make me have any opinions as to what his sexuality is or what I would prefer it to be.

I don't think having girls not do things because its risky is right. Women presumably are more likely to get attacked if they are out at night vs day- does this mean that we shouldn't go out at night?

FYI, the outcomes for children in a lesbian two-mum family are pretty darn good.

I don't doubt that at all but I still don't think that those children should be conceived via an anonymous donor.

I'm certain that gay men are great parents too. I don't think surrogacy is right either.

I don't doubt that at all but I still don't think that those children should be conceived via an anonymous donor.

I don't think surrogacy is right either.

One of these things is not like the other. Sperm donation, particularly where a child will have access to donor details, incl health information, is an entirely different concept to surrogacy.

I don't think surrogacy is right either. I just don't think it's comparable to lesbian partners using sperm donation to conceive.

So for those reading and wondering about the very warped direction this thread has taken, especially the homophobic one on a Feminism board, of all places, then just remember that often the people posting her are not feminists. They come here specifically because they are not feminists.

Ah. OK.

Ok. That's your opinion. I don't agree and think that anonymous sperm donation is comparable.

2 men that I know have grown up not knowing their fathers. They both had good step dads. That still very much affected them. A step dad didn't compensate for not knowing their biological father.

Having access to donor details isn't the same as having a relationship with the father.

I agree with a pp. It is not centering the needs of the child. It is centering the wants of the parents.

So, you'd deny IVF + sperm donation to single women too ? Or to straight couples where the man is infertile ?

How on earth are the two comparable - there is no medical risk to the man who donates his sperm, for starters, while the risk to egg donors and/or surrogate mothers is huge.

An infant born to a lesbian mother does not have her his or her attachment to the mother interrupted; their fourth trimester is seamless.

Many, many differences.

JanesKettle

Yes,I would if it involves donation (either egg or sperm) from annonymous donors.

Having a child isn't a right in my view. The child, or potential child's, rights are paramount and shouldn't come 2nd to the wants of the parents.

As I understand it sperm donors in the UK can no longer be anonymous and their biological child has the right to know who they are if they wish to have contact with them

My DH bio father did not want him & refused to acknowledge him when he was born despite there being no doubt over his paternity. DH has no interest in knowing who he is or making contact and that should be his choice. He was brought up from the age of 3 by the man he calls his dad & that’s good enough for him

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4397249.stm

No anonymity since 2005

I know that the child can trace them at 18 but that's their whole childhood gone. Also, what happens when they are traced? It doesn't result in a relationship with their father does it?

I know that many children grow up without their father. I think that's incredibly sad. If a relationship breaks down then the ideal is that the children have a relationship with both parents. what happens once the child has been conceived is one thing but I don't think you should plan to have a child knowing that they wont know their father.

That is satisfying a want of the parent not the needs of a potential child.

The ignorance on this thread!

Re children conceived via sperm donors - they have plenty of information about the donor before they turn 18. The sperm bank provide his name, age, job, details about his family, likes, dislikes, a photo of him as a child, a recording of his voice and much more. I happen to know my children's donor likes the film Anchorman and gets indigestion from spicy food! He isn't some mysterious shadowy figure. All this information about him is available to this conceived as children and if they want to meet him when they are adults that is their decision.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras re the children having a 'relationship' with their father (or donor as it would be in the case of lesbian parents) - co-parenting does often work successfully when the gay mum and dad are both single but tends to get complicated with couples or if they get into new relationships. Surely you must understand it is rare for a gay couple to find a man willing to father a child and have a relationship with that child yet simultaneously relinquishing all parental rights over that child? Or are you suggesting a donor should have parental rights and the non birth mother no rights?

Surely you can see a sperm donor is a logical option for lesbian couples who want (and deserve) to have a family of their own and share parental responsibility?

co-parenting does often work successfully when the gay mum and dad are both single but tends to get complicated with couples or if they get into new relationships

How is it any different to the many step families and blended families? Many children are raised with their parents new partners. How are gay relationships any different?

Surely you can see a sperm donor is a logical option for lesbian couples who want (and deserve) to have a family of their own and share parental responsibility?

I'm sorry but no one deserves to be a parent. It isn't a right. Just as no one has a right to, or deserves, sex. It's a want not a need or a right.

The rights of the child should be paramount and I believe that every child should know and have a relationship with both biological parents unless, as I said, there is a risk involved.

It used to be that donors were completely anonymous and remained so. That was, for years, thought to be the right way. Now it's changed because it's been realised that it's detrimental to the child. I think it needs to be changed further still.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras so you believe a lesbian who wants a child should either sleep with a man / find a man to conceive with with all the complications that brings or else not have a child at all?

Dubious

What about straight couples with male factor infertility? Should they not have access to donors either?

I've already answered that question - I do not believe in anonymous (or where a resulting child has no relationship with the biological parent) gamete donation, for anyone.

Gay, straight, single, in a relationship. Personally, I don't agree with it. It's nothing to do with lesbians having to sleep with a man. It's to do with the rights of a child, a person separate from its parents, to know who.its biological parents are and to have a relationship with them.

I say again, having a child is not a right.

This whole 'children must have a relationship with a father!' is the kind of argument, btw, that keeps women and children trapped by Family Court in relationships with their abusers.

OP, I understand where you are coming from. My 15 year old daughter is a lesbian. While I know her life may not be easy and she could still have an abusive partner, I feel there is much less chance of this. I literally cannot believe how many women are with men who are abusive in one way or another. I'm happy and relieved that my daughter isn't interested in men.