John Lewis

[sybilshade]

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Yes, but how ethical are these places?
They cant be worse than jl?

Honestly can't think of anywhere else on the high street that sells white goods

Jeez really. Argos Asda Tesco's curry's, near me about a hundred independents who sell new and second hand and reconditioned.
All of which you Rock up in your car, pay for your white good, stick in car and go. This includes washing machines and smaller cookers. Maybe not the huge American fridge freezers

Tbf it doesn't impact me at all to not shop at John Lewis since I don't think I've ever bought anything much there. I bought my sofa from a high st clearance centre and most of my furniture is junk shop or flea market. My new fridge is coming from Argos. I'm not posh enough for JL

They cant be worse than jl?

Yes, they can.....far worse......including those big supermarket chains you mention. Just because they don't yet have mixed sex loos doesn't mean they are ethical or non exploitative.

I've noticed work going on in the toilet area of my big local Tesco recently..and they are currently closed to the public .I did wonder what is going on there.....

You do what works for you.....of course......but you'll need to campaign and do a lot more than boycotting J.Lewis ( which is what this thread is specifically about) to see the change you, and all of us, want.

Just think that we are increasingly going to find it difficult to find anywhere on the high street that does not have unisex toilets or mixed changing rooms.

And my response to this, and many women's who can't just 'adapt' to this, will just not have access to toilets or use those shops.

The hope is that women will just accept it's go along with this or lose the resource, and just get used to it. And the excluded women will be hidden and not talked about, because they're the very awkward detail that demonstrates this is not 'inclusive' at all, it's actively excluding some women from any provision to provide people born male with wider choice and freedom. And the words 'feeling comfortable' is solely about the customers with penises and is a gesture of profound sexism against women.

I intend to stand with those excluded women and point this out as loudly and as often as I can, because herein is the misogyny, the male sexual rights movement, the absence of equality in thinking, the aim to develop freedom to enact inappropriate behaviour publicly involving non consenting others, the total lack of respect for people's beliefs, faiths, cultures, histories, and therefore the absence of morality that underpins this situation being spun as 'progress'.

Tbf it doesn't impact me at all to not shop at John Lewis since I don't think I've ever bought anything much there. I bought my sofa from a high st clearance centre and most of my furniture is junk shop or flea market. My new fridge is coming from Argos. I'm not posh enough for JL grin

Here is the Argos policy on Trans rights: www.argos.co.uk/features/pride

Honestly, every single retailer of any size or national profile is going to be the same.......

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/484855/The_recruitment_and_retention_of_transgender_staff-_guidance_for_employers.pdf

This is the government document which advises employers - including some of those alternative retailers ( to j.Lewis) that some have mentioned, on their trans inclusion policies - including use of singles sex facilities.

You will find this is coming from government in the main - and is being sailed in right under the radar.

Use of facilities – a trans person should be free to select the facilities appropriate to the gender in which they present. For example, when a trans person starts to live in their acquired gender role on a full time basis they should be afforded the right to use the facilities appropriate to the acquired gender role. Employers should avoid discriminating against anyone with the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’. Where employers already offer gender-neutral toilets and changing facilities, the risk of creating a barrier for transgender people is alleviated assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/484855/The_recruitment_and_retention_of_transgender_staff-_guidance_for_employers.pdf

Some sorts of shops are different though. Argos isn’t a clothes shop though it now does sell some. I wouldn’t expect single sex rooms On a market stall or charity shop. But if I was spending £60 on two tops I do want to try them on without feeling rushed or harassed or that I’m not welcome in a space.

"I cannot believe that we are here. Every day I wake up and am outraged once again. Men really, really fucking hate us don't they?"

they do. I don't get outraged on a daily basis because I've thought this for about 30 years!

"and they simply don't have the same level of after sales care that you get at J.Lewis."

I simply don't care as much about the after sales care of my fridge, than I do about my DD's safety when in a vulnerable position such as being on their own, in their underwear, in a small confined area with no one else about, where any man can walk in off the street.

I don't think the warranty on my fridge is more important than womens' and girls' safety.

I haven’t rtft I’m afraid but FFS! Not another one. Although I do think JL has been going downhill a bit in terms of customer service so I’m not as sad to boot them as I would have been a few years ago.

There are a couple of things that I really hate about the changing room debacle. One is that it falls to (predominantly female, low paid) shop floor staff to police the changing rooms and deliver this mysterious “necessary action” all the retailers talk about. And if JL are expecting their staff to “use their judgement”, have they carried out the necessary risk assessment? How does this actually look in practice? Predatory man takes a stack of lingerie into female changing rooms, teenage girl working on the door says “excuse me sir, I don’t think you should be in here” and the male just...apologises and goes away quietly? No risk to the young girl of violence or abuse?

Secondly, I hate the way that this is all so secretive. These stores are effectively colluding with the perverts who get a kick out of wanking in a cubicle next to a teenage girl (I know, I know, we’re supposed to pretend that these men don’t exist and definitely wouldn’t abuse the changing room policy). By labelling the changing rooms “female” and “male”, or by placing them in the womenswear/menswear departments without clearly labelling them as mixed sex, they are misleading women into believing that they are changing in a single sex space. If you are going to have mixed sex changing rooms, at least label them as such and let people make an informed decision.

I think Justhadathought has a point here. Every business seems to have a TWAW policy.
The last thing a business wants is a controversy, to drive away a section of their potential customers, to be accused of being “_ist”. Up till now the best way for them to act has been to outsource their conscience - if you go along with what a government backed campaign group says then how can it be your fault? JL don’t give a crap about transwomen, they just want to wash their hands of it like Pontius Pilot.

Boycott if you feel that’s best. Certainly don’t use their changing rooms if they make you feel uncomfortable. What is essential, though, is to let them know why.
I agree with Justhadathought that the change needs to be from the top. Once the policy is “people can present how they want, but TWCANW (transwomen clearly are not women) all the businesses will fall into line.

So I was in TK Max isn’t he ladies dept. Had an armful of clothes and saw the changing rooms so thought I’d have a look.

It actually said ‘woman’s’ - so far so good. A corridor or doors, ok, opening into the store so open to all in sundry if to stepped our of the cubicle - not perfect but ok. How we’ve the first cubicle was open and directly opposite - so well down the corridor (and blocking it) - was a bloke chatting away to the woman in the cubicle. I was gawping at the ‘woman’ sign (he was standing next to it) and at him (wondering why he was so special he could be in the woman’s changing area).

As I turned to go (probably shaking my head) I saw an assistant out of the corner of my eye start to come after me (I had an armful of clothes so she probably thought I was pondering coming in - it was underwear so I wasn’t). I suppose she assumed I had decided not to enter because or the man standing there.

Just to add, there's a significant issue for those stores who offer services such as bra fitting. The principle of mixed sex facilities and the hazards they offer to women are evident. The idea that you sell underwear and offer a bra fitting service - which in itself involves nudity - and insist that women must share facilities with men - is profoundly insulting and dangerous for women. This man being able to film you is multiplied ++++++ I wonder if he was in an M & S or John Lewis in order to film the young woman in her underwear?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6796451/Surrey-father-two-jailed-posting-46-upskirt-videos-London-Underground-adult-website.html

Note the judge's comments:

There had to be a degree of planning when you got a video recording of a women's changing area, where females were changing their clothes in what they thought was the privacy of a cubicle

I had the same at TK Maxx a month ago.

The young lad at the changing room entrance said "He's with his girlfriend" when I questioned it. I replied that he shouldn't be there, dumped the clothes I was carrying on him and went and found a manager. I saw her heading off to the changing rooms but, unfortunately, didn't have time to wait for the outcome.

We really should complain every time otherwise they'll assume nobody's concerned..

@uncompromisingwoman I directly addressed this issue with M&S when I emailed their CEO address. I asked how they had risk assessed the policy with regards teenage girls having bra fittings in the same changing area as male bodied people. Their response was that the lingerie fitting rooms are designed specifically for that purpose. It hadn't even bloody occured to them (or to the customer service bod I was emailing with) that any man would have any reason whatsoever to gain access to the lingerie fitting rooms

Arthurcats “to her it would make no difference “ except women are extraordinarily unlikely to be secretly filming her, waiting to sexually assault her, or wanking in the next cubicle.

I contacted JL, and got this response, apparently it's been policy for years, so if we've only just noticed, then it's obviously all been fine up to now, and we have nothing to worry about.

I sent it to the Managing Director of JL, [email protected]
and added in Chairman of JL Partnership [email protected]

also Director of Personnel of JL Partnership [email protected]

and finally Deputy Chairman of JL Partnership [email protected]

I added links to fairplayforwomen.com/changing_rooms/ and www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html to show how the Equality Act supports the legal provision of single sex space for women and, by extension, girls, and the impact of mixed sex provision on women and girls.

The electrical stuff that I've traditionally bought from JL can easily be replaced, when necessary, from other shops. Food is more of an issue, as waitrose is near by, so I don't have to drive. I'll have to limit myself to a max of £10, so I can get a free Times, which is one of the few places that allows debate, rather than dogma.

I'm sure we'll be portrayed as bigots for wanting to protect women, and by extension, girls, but all these shops have the legal right to do so, but choose not to. I just don't understand why. Like everyone one else I want safety and security for all, but why do men's fetishes take precedence, what is wrong with women saying NO, and why do JL and M&S take our money and laugh at us. I'm sick of the lot of them.

AllMumseyWereTheBorrowedClothes (fab name btw)
That is a very clear response from you, I wonder how they will reply ?

I do think going in and very loudly requesting an all female space is one way of dealing with it.
The “oh we have been secretly forcing you to change alongside men for years, we just didn’t bother telling you silly women” is NOT a response that makes them look at all is it ?

The fitter could also be someone who feels comfortable.

As far as I can see that Argos statement is generally about Pride/LGBTetc rights and equality in the workplace?
Not nessecarily to do with men in women's spaces. I mean, I think most large companies have a "we support Pride" stance. I'm sure all these businesses will say publicly that they are "inclusive" but Marks and JL are specifically saying that anyone can use the dressing room they feel like, and putting their staff at risk in the process.

They can’t say we have been doing it for years so what’s the problem. The Trans/non binary umbrella now means anyone of any appearance or any gender or none can use a space.

They can’t say a Man (he/she/them/they) who looks like a male bodied individual have been popping in and out of our rooms for years and we just haven’t noticed. They have at least had to make some changes. Now you don’t even have to say it’s because of your gender identity it can be purely because you feel more comfortable.

(Read the above many times to see if get me another MN strike but can't think of another way to phrase it or say Man to mean “man” in how generally we mean when we talk)

The “ inclusive* makes me so
It is inclusive of men with fetishes, men who hate women, and men who want to spy on them, while excluding women and girls who have experienced sexual assault, women and girls who have experienced male violence, women with dementia, women and girls with learning difficulties, women and girls whose faith precludes them changing alongside males, women and girls who want the security of an all female space, fathers shopping with daughters who want to feel that their dd can enter the changing room safely alone, and all girls and women who for whatever reason feel “uncomfortable “ in mixed sex spaces.
Which is the higher number I wonder ? Pervy men who hate women, or the girls and women on that list ?

Why does one groups need to be included trump the needs of another group not to feel embarrassed, humiliated, scared, uneasy, uncomfortable? Can they answer that?

Lord that's the end goal of this surely - victimhood top trumps. This whole thing is a joke to some people.