John Lewis

[sybilshade]

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WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles

Yep, I thought that as well.

I've emailed John Lewis again after receiving the generic response from Irene Hally, Director Relations Case Manager. I've copied in Paula Nickolds.

I doubt I'll get a response but I've asked a few questions... my message is here.

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Dear Ms Hally

Thank you for your email and for clarifying John Lewis' new changing room policy.

I have a few questions.

Were any women's groups consulted about the potential risks to women and girls of opening up previously protected single sex spaces to any man who wishes to enter them?

Were any legal experts consulted regarding protecting women and girls on the basis of their sex?

What measures have you taken to ensure that every girl and woman entering what were previously single sex changing rooms is informed that they may now be sharing these spaces with men?

What measures have you taken to ensure that hidden cameras are not installed in mixed sex changing rooms? Have you trained your staff to identify the different forms such cameras may take?

What measures have you taken to ensure that men are not able to put a cameraphone underneath or above the cubicle next to them to film the woman or girl in the next door cubicle while she is getting changed?

What measures have you taken to ensure that women and girls will not be subject to sexual assault in your changing rooms?

What measures have you taken to ensure that your staff will not be subject to sexual assault in your changing rooms?

What measures have you taken to ensure that women whose religious beliefs mean they are not able to share changing rooms with men are comfortable in your changing rooms?

What measures have you taken to ensure that women who have experienced sexual assault will be comfortable in your changing rooms?

I would be interested to hear your answers to these questions.

In the meantime, however, I do not feel comfortable in any changing room that I have to share with men, so your 'inclusive' policy does not include me or any other woman or girl who does not feel comfortable sharing spaces with men when they are getting changed.

I will not be shopping at John Lewis or Waitrose again unless this policy changes and I will be advising everyone I know to boycott your shops.

Yours sincerely,
GrandmaMazur

I was in Marks yesterday and there are no signs differentiating between Male and Female fitting rooms. They all just say "Fitting Room". I think in the past it was just obvious that the ones in ladies areas were only going to be used by women.
The lady manning the one I went in was quite young. It makes me really angry that these shops are putting their female staff in this position. I couldn't imagine this young girl wanting to deal with a male fetishist or a "Maam".It's literally more than her jobs worth.
Personally I couldn't give a shite if men are gay, straight, transsexual, agp or whatever. It's irrelevant to me. They should ALL be in the men's. I don't need to justify that.
Datun is right, men that other men don't want to include are not automatically women ffs.

By all means boycott stores and certain producers if it makes you feel better.....and you don't fee unnecessarily deprived as a result; but I'm not sure you are really doing anything much more than cutting your own nose off, in this instance. This is not to minimise the issue - but to take a more strategic view of it.

Not buying a washing machine, for example, from John Lewis because they sometimes permit male bodied people into the women's changing rooms doesn't follow logically...... certainly is not consistent with being prepared to vote for parties that have supported/do support Gender Self ID ( & they all do) simply because you like some of their other policies......It is at the level of policy, at a national level, that has the greatest impact on behaviour further down 'the food chain'.

I'll continue to shop at John Lewis - because I like it, and do most of my household ( & clothes) shopping there; although I've already brought up the issue of changing rooms with them ( hence I know they've already been doing this for many years) and will continue to do so.

Gender Self ID is the biggest issue, at present - along with what is being taught and encouraged in schools. Self ID will increase the numbers of men who legitimately feel they can access women's spaces - and who have the full legal backing to do so.

In this case I think the war will have to be won from 'the top down', not by thinking that individual organisations, especially national chains and corporations, will go against the flow and general consensus of 'best practice'. Because I don't think they will.

In the meantime, maybe, like in my local branch of john Lewis - they will make some attempt at separation between cubicles and areas so as to be as discreet as possible and not upset their female customers.

It’s not a case of ‘feeling better’ - I don’t feel comfortable in changing rooms anyway and certainly don’t want to be around men in there too. It makes me feel better by not feeling uncomfortable l!

Thanks to @Hornets
I like the rapanui site although I'm currently struggling to get the size guide up. The bundles look great.
Been using seasalt for a couple years. Honestly I try to not buy loads of clothes, at least only replacing items when needed, but I'm currently at a point where half my wardrobe does in fact need replacing. So also been attempting to buy good quality stuff, therefore needing replaced less often. I was finally about to go to jl and ask for jl vouchers for xmas and birthday. Sigh.

It makes me feel better by not feeling uncomfortable l!

Ditto.

Not a vague political gesture, I plain don't want to be in a mixed sex changing room. I won't use one. End of. When a shop goes this way, it ceases to be a shop I can use. Many other women will be similarly excluded.

It’s not a case of ‘feeling better’ - I don’t feel comfortable in changing rooms anyway and certainly don’t want to be around men in there too

I suspect most of us wouldn't feel comfortable.......but practically speaking this has been their practice already for a long time, and considering, so far, how often I'm in there, I have yet to encounter such an uncomfortable situation, or an obvious male bodied person.
Self ID, though, will increase and fully legitimise male incursions into female spaces. So for me, not being prepared to vote for parties that endorse this is the biggest sacrifice, I can make, and the most meaningful.

Of course J.Lewis, and any other retailer, needs, in the meantime, to be aware that women have major issues with this. As some have already suggested, I think it is going to take time...as well as, unfortunately, negative incidents for things to revert back to truly single sex spaces. Gender Self ID means that TWAW - and therefore 'single sex' means nothing.

Justhadathought

Removing my custom from these stores is the only power I have in all this. I can't use the tactics that lobby groups do - lying about the law, bribing with awards, publicity and jobs, prioritising one group's demands over the rights of every other protected characteristic, intimidating and bullying others. Women - as we are seeing in a spectacular manner - have zero influence. For two such major British brands to completely ignore the safety and welfare of their women customers is breathtaking in its arrogance and contempt for women.
What I can do is withdraw my custom, These are not single person businesses struggling to survive. These are billion ££ businesses. It may have minimal impact on their plans - although hopefully many many families are moving their custom elsewhere. But even if it doesn't, I am longer supporting what have turned out to be toxic brands in terms of their lack of respect and care for women.

no longer

Removing my custom from these stores is the only power I have in all this

It is certainly one thing you can do......but the other is not to vote for political parties that endorse all of this...either through neglect to examine, or through active policy commitment.

Aligned to withdrawing your custom, is withdrawing your political support, and campaigning on this issue at a more national level.

Justhadathought
Why are you so desperate that we keep shopping at JL? It seems rather odd to keep arguing that we must spend money with this company despite their treatment of women?

It may have minimal impact on their plans - although hopefully many many families are moving their custom elsewhere

From a purely practical viewpoint, unless you shop for everything on -line ( which I personally dislike, and which contributes to the decimation of the high street, as well as endorsing companies like Amazon who pay very little tax in the U.K), it may well be very difficult to find other similar retailers in your town or city that offer the same sort of range as J.Lewis.

Of course you could go to places such as Comet ( do they even still exist?) for your electrical and white goods, and so on......Just think that we are increasingly going to find it difficult to find anywhere on the high street that does not have unisex toilets or mixed changing rooms.

I think the opposite justhad
Every social and historical movement has had an economic basis in some way. Hitting big business in the pocket when they "follow best practice" ( e.g pro men anti women) is a good way to make them re assess.
Don't you think governments listen to large corporations?

Why are you so desperate that we keep shopping at JL? It seems rather odd to keep arguing that we must spend money with this company despite their treatment of women?

I'm not 'desperate'...but yes, I do most of my shopping there, and have for a long time..... what I am at pains to explore though - is the idea that the sort of change which will truly effect this movement towards mixed sex everything - is at the national, political level....and therefore, strategically, I see it as more effective in the longer term.

Of course boycott places if that is what you are moved to do.......I became vegetarian almost 40 years ago when hardly anyone else was, and it made eating out etc really very difficult - but I did it because it was that important to me......and I could not contribute to that any longer.

But you will need to align your boycott with other protest for it to have maximum impact - and not just be a total inconvenience to yourself for a very long time.

What an odd conversation. There are countless opportunities to buy white goods, clothing and food other than at JL & M&S - you must know that? And yes, there are checks and balances with every decision we make - retail, political etc. But sometimes I decide to pick a side. And having been a very loyal customer of both these brands, when they decide to treat women with contempt, I have decided to withdraw my custom. And fortunately there are a myriad of retail alternatives so I really won't miss them.

I'm not much of a consumer so I might be totally ignorant about this - but it seems to me that most of them will "fall". Are there any shops who have actually taken a stand on keeping with single sex changing rooms?

Don't you think governments listen to large corporations?

Sometimes.....but government seems to be quite happy to let Amazon, for example, get away with paying next to no tax in the U.K.....

This is a case of the retailers being the tail that the dog is wagging. J.Lewis is still largely a co-operative/partnership, rather than a corporation, anyway. I'd still rather shop there than at any number of other high street or on-line retailers.

We all know it’s only a matter of time before a “customer acts inappropriately.”

*There are countless opportunities to buy white goods, clothing and food other than at JL & M&S 8

Yes, but how ethical are these places? What is their business model?
Unless you shop only at small local independents then you are inevitably feeding into some or other exploitation.

Honestly can't think of anywhere else on the high street that sells white goods - unless you go to big, out of town retail park sheds; and they simply don't have the same level of after sales care that you get at J.Lewis.

Where I live there is Only a Next marks primark topshop (I’m way to old for that anyway!) H&M and couple smaller non accessible shops. Not everyone has huge choice on the actual high street.

All big supermarkets that sell clothes are out of town and need a car though of course can order online.

I think we all get it justhad. You disagree with hitting JL on an economic level because you like shopping there so you will continue to do so and will try to justify it to yourself and others even though you disagree with their policy.

As I think you pointed out yourself, it is interesting what people will do when suddenly their own lifestyle is impacted and you are choosing to ignore it. Many other women are not and I am happy to be one of them.

Reading pps. I don’t think women should shop online at the stores who offer their safety up on a plate in store. if a shop won’t respect your needs and allow you to be comfortable don’t use it at all.
I don’t think women should have to go underground, this is exactly what they want. This is the solution that allows men who want to dominate to put us back indoors.
ask loudly as opposed suggested “DO YOU HAVE CHANGING ROOMS FOR WOMEN WHO ARE NOT COMFORTABLE SHARING WITH MEN.” Compile a list after emailing your fave stores to ask if they provide women only changing facilities and if they don’t, boycott. Loss of profit is only way they will learn.

Interestingly I just showed my DD this, and also showed her the M&S thread. She had never actually noticed that there were separate M/F changing areas..... not sure how, but anyway. She actually thought anyone could use any changing rooms. As an incredibly self-conscience person, she says she is as self conscious with other women as with other men/trans, so to her it would make no difference.

*I think we all get it justhad. You disagree with hitting JL on an economic level because you like shopping there so you will continue to do so and will try to justify it to yourself and others even though you disagree with their policy8

I'm suggesting you question how effective this action will be.......

I don't need to justify anything. I'm fine with continuing to shop there. I don't feel compromised by it in the way I do about potentially voting for a party that supports Self ID.

I imagine that I asked J.Lewis about how they dealt with this matter a long time before you even considered it. I've known for ages that this is what they do - but as I said, I have yet to encounter such a situation there myself.

I'm not suggesting you do anything which makes you feel compromised or which impacts on your integrity; but I am suggesting you take that analysis further than just J.Lewis, and apply it to all retailers and restaurants, as well as to your own political representatives ( more importantly, in my view).