John Lewis

[sybilshade]

fallen
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I really think they don’t care. They are relying on women needing to shop somewhere, and having no choice.

Unfortunately my original email is on the right, their response is on the left (I couldn't get them the right way round) I have replied, asking that they read my email and adding uncompromisingwoman's link to the Daily Mail piece on the voyeur. I presume it'll get to the M&S level of not bothering to reply before long.

I just hope they'll get the message - they have the floor space to provide separate mixed sex/gender neutral changing rooms and can accommodate all clients, not just men who do not belong in women's spaces.

Every time I sign in to mumsnet, I'm reminded of my lovely, recently deceased, Mother in law, and I wonder how a tiny, frail, 87 year old woman would have coped if she'd come into contact with some of the lovely gentlemen who posted reviews on the M&S website, how dare they throw her, or any of us, under the weight of men's entitlement.

Off to do some womanly ironing now

I simply don't care as much about the after sales care of my fridge, than I do about my DD's safety when in a vulnerable position such as being on their own, in their underwear, in a small confined area with no one else about, where any man can walk in off the street

Boycotting individual retailers does not solve the larger problem, though; nor make you any more concerned or moral than the rest of us are about this issue. My point is that it is the government equalities office that is putting out these instructions and guidelines.
All large organisations are required to meet the standards they set, and each organisation is required to have its own equalities officer or advisor.

You may well shop elsewhere but please be aware that other retailers are also more than likely to have the same guidelines; and even if they don't have changing rooms for customers, then their own staff are subject to these sorts of conditions.

It is not the fault or choice of 'the partners' at John Lewis or anywhere else - this is at the behest of our own government. Don't shout and scream at individual retailers and then blithely go on to vote for those that are sending out these missives in the first place.That would be putting shutting the stable door after the horse has already bolted.

This issue is more important than simply when it effects us personally, although that is when most of us wake up and take action.

@ AllMumsyWereTheBorrowedClothes and I imagine my mum and grandma - real northern women who wild never back off.

It non binary previous women want have breasts removed say, then they wouldn’t want to them change near breasts would they. So use the men’s. Then a non binary previously male boded person would want be around other non breasts people ie use the men’s. So now there’s no non binary people at in the ladies at all?

As far as I can see that Argos statement is generally about Pride/LGBTetc rights and equality in the workplace

It will also mean that their own staff will be subject to these conditions. Does that not matter too? Of course it does.......but it is going to be virtually impossible soon to find an organisation or national company that isn't run according to these guidelines.

Just, can you be more specific about what it is your after?
I have re read your posts and I'm no wiser.
We appear to be on the same side here so a concise post from you would help me enormously.

Somebody's cage is seriously rattled!

3 Tweets in half an hour and not a damn for women's rights. Sad really.

PuLL ladies.

Awww the wee weans have woken up have they?

DARVO in action

I hope that JL & M & S are keeping an eye on what women are talking about on these threads - as they're evidently currently only listening to specific unrepresentative but powerful groups in society. At least JL can be reassured that men in masks with baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire, shouting threats and misogynistic abuse won't be turning up at their stores - unlike women trying to meet who repeatedly have to run the gauntlet of this from those groups currently forcing men into women's sex segregated spaces.

Excluding women is sexist.

Making conditions such that women can no longer access facilities is sexist.

As for John Lewis and their open policy, well its only open to some, they've closed it to others (women and girls who dont feel either safe or comfortable as they so ridiculously put it).

They have put men over womens needs.

John Lewis, I accuse you of sexism.

I also accuse many womens services who I've seen advertising spaces jokingly called 'safe'.

Sexist.

The Tweets are from the same person who makes a living out of this and prides herself on instigating the whole Flora debacle.

I guess she's up a cul-de-sac with this now and has to try to justify past actions.

I don't think this is in line with the Equalities Act as JL say that EVERYONE can used the changing room IN WHICH THEY FEEL MOST COMFORTABLE regardless of whether they are going through or have undergone gender re-assignment.

If they really cared they would ensure that their changing rooms were structurally designed to guarantee privacy and safety for everyone, but of course it's cheaper to just declare a room that gives limited to no privacy 'gender neutral'.

So many women and young girls are most definitely not safest or most comfortable this way.

It excludes women. It doesn't matter thats not all women. Women do have rights to single sex spaces, right?

Why can't they make separate spaces gor separate requirements.

Its all bypassed with the word 'gender'

Gender should have been becoming less and less relevant, instead it seems to be taking prority over actual sex

But gender stereotypes are harmful, and its bio sex division that needs accommodating

Just I'm really interested to know why you are so keen to persuade us not to boycott stores.

I am completely up for a store boycott in the run up to Christmas.

There lots of local butchers, grocers and independent clothes stores that could benefit

It is not the fault or choice of 'the partners' at John Lewis or anywhere else - this is at the behest of our own government.

It's really not though.

John Lewis are not required to provide single sex changing rooms, but they are allowed to provide single sex changing rooms as per exemptions in the Equalities Act.

They are choosing not to.

^It's really not though.
^^
^John Lewis are not required to provide single sex changing rooms, but they are allowed to provide single sex changing rooms as per exemptions in the Equalities Act.

They are choosing not to.

This.

However, Just you are right that the way the law is framed encourages them to take the line of least resistance.

Single sex facilities are allowed under the exemptions where they are "a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim." Nobody has yet tested that law, and I suspect that few organisations want to be involved in a test case.

However, there is no law that says a shop even needs changing rooms.

I know this has been mentioned on the M&S thread as well

but please don't do a thing of ordering and sending back with comments. Just email the senior staff in the first place.

otherwise all you're doing is creating extra work for junior staff who have no input into all this crazy anyway, and frankly are put at risk by it.

But by not voting for parties who back the self id/100 gender identities ideology you actually can't vote at all. And if I don't vote at all, well, one of the parties will still win. So it makes no difference.

I do think we need to be lobbying individual MPs and councillors (which lots of us are) but when a company with a female customer base explicitly states that they don't give a shit about their customers it's 100% the right thing to show them the back of your neck.

That women with concerns about the exclusion of women by mixed sex changing spaces are 'unhinged' says it all really.

Interesting they're so very concerned with the rights and equalities of one group and their feelings and needs - while not giving one toss for the rights, equalities, feelings and needs of another.

There is a third way you know. A way in which everyone's needs can be met and equally valued. One group does not have to be sacrificed to the other. There doesn't have to be a hierarchy of people to sort out who has feelings and wants that get listened to, and gets told to be silent and do as they're told, and they're 'unhinged' for protesting.

FGS is there anyone out there, anyone at all, capable of basic fairness and common sense here?

And if I don't vote at all, well, one of the parties will still win. So it makes no difference
I know this is never going to happen, but imagine if every woman spoiled the ballot! It would be remarked on for sure. You cannot ignore half the population without some opposition.

Just, can you be more specific about what it is your after?I have re read your posts and I'm no wiser.We appear to be on the same side here so a concise post from you would help me enormously

Focus your attention and campaigning where it will be most effective - and that is at the party political level This is where the 'push' is originating from, and retailers, and others, are simply responding.

By all means boycott if you feel that will really have any impact.....but don't then go on to support politicians, who even if they don't personally agree, are prepared to toe party lines on the issue of Self ID/Trans and Women's rights. Once Self ID comes in - then that really will be the start of a big problem. Because TWAW will be law.

As it is, so far, in 30 + years of shopping at J.L I have not yet encountered a male bodied person in a female changing area, even though they have, apparently, been 'welcoming' long standing male bodied customers into female changing areas for many years, from what I can assess from the questions I've asked.

What I'm saying is don't unnecessarily 'cut off your own nose' because you will inevitably end up with hardly anywhere to shop...because most places are going this way.

I'm not saying you should accept this incursion without question, but that the real battle is elsewhere. Until government stands up and declares that single sex spaces are sacrosanct - and continues to advise on 'inclusion' - then nothing will change, and it will only get worse.

I'm spoiling my ballot, as are many others.....because this is the the level at which these things are originating. What is the point of voting Labour or Lib Dem when they are committed to Self ID, whilst at the same time boycotting individual retailers? The tories have not ben much better ( & that is without factoring in many people's absolute inability to vote for them because of multiple other issues) This issue is not one that is going to be turned around because of appeals to government by retailers.