John Lewis

[sybilshade]

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babynewt

Need a definition for "transwomen"
anyone who is an actual transwomen should not be discriminated against. This is about distinguishing transwomen, or those who would be "undergoing transistion" (presumably would have silicone implants) to be treated sensitively, think this would be difficult but not undoable.

Well I think we would all like a definition of transwoman that didn't infringe on women's privacy. But there isn't one. The definition is anyone who says they are.

Silicon breast implants are frequently used by men who have a fetish. They have the implants, but keep their penis, as it's arousing. (Google 'girls like us' to see - but be warned it's fairly pornographic). Plus you can't really demand that someone has an operation.

The problem is deciding that the definition of women changes. Why should it? A man without a penis is a eunuch, not a woman. Women aren't artificially weakened men. Or men without a body part.

Women are fully fledged human beings, in their own right. With a set of shared characteristics that place them in the same. Characteristics that no man on the planet has. We're not some dumping ground for a subset of men who other men have decided don't quite fit.

I completely agree that men with gender dysphoria are distressed and it would be ideal to alleviate their suffering. But actually, it is not these men who are demanding the changes. They tend to not want to draw attention to themselves, and just get on with it under the radar. Many of them are as angry and upset with this turn of events as women are.

I third space is the way forward. And any man who objects, has to have his motives questioned.

So, both of these major retailers have restrictions on returning underwear and/or swimwear, items which require you to undress/strip off to try on & check fit, and they have just confirmed they allow mixed sex changing? Okaaaaay. What a bunch of fucking numpties. It’s almost like they want high street to die onits arse. Their shareholders should be pushing for reinstatement of single sex fitting rooms if the senior management don’t have the sense to do it. It is absolutely lawful under the EqA exemptions, so they can’t even play the “worried about litigation” card. 🙄

@Justhadathought, but if we target companies, it forces them to consider to their position. And it introduces the topic to people who might previously have been unaware of it.

You say we should use our voice by voting instead, but then you say that all parties support self-ID. So, we should use our voice by not voting for anyone at all?

I think we should use our voice in all of the ways that we can - pressure on companies to examine / defend their policies, writing to our MPs etc. outlining our concerns, talking to our friends and family about these things.

About to buy a new dishwasher from JL. That will not be happening now

I wouldn't deprive yourself of doing that. I'd still buy it. Better John Lewis, one of the better retailers, than some other company who may well have practices and sources that are equally as questionable in other regards.

Punishing lone retailers for following a far larger movement is not the answer. No retailer, unless totally independent, is going to stand aside from the general or 'accepted' best practice.

It was always going to be the case that people would be come far more radicalised when the trans agenda impacted on them personally. Disapproval and complaint is valid, and necessary, so that retailers and others understand that there is unhappiness about this practice.....but this is not the level at which true change will occur.

You say we should use our voice by voting instead, but then you say that all parties support self-ID. So, we should use our voice by not voting for anyone at all?

Many of us will be spoiling our ballots...and actively campaigning out local MPS, councillors, candidates to explain why. ( There are several threads dedicated to the issue of the up-coming elections)

There seem to be more one trick ponies about than usual.

@Justhadathought, but if we target companies, it forces them to consider to their position. And it introduces the topic to people who might previously have been unaware of it

Yes, certainly write, and speak, to managers - but I don't think this will actively change the policy. It will, though, make sure voices are heard and registered. Also, of course, speak to women in shops and outside of changing rooms, let them know about the policy.

Speak to women in toilets at the supermarket and in restaurants too.....

koshkat that is just how I am feeling.

There is no way to distinguish between a transperson who is homosexual and dysphoric, and a person presenting as female, as they put it. Autogynaephiles do sometimes have breast implants while keeping their genitals intact. Ditto breast tissue fuelled by hormones. Not all people who “present as female” will be no danger to women.

I want single sex space very much, but I would be less afraid of a same sex attracted male with dysphoria, or old school transsexual, than I would any other male in “female” clothing.
How do places tell the difference ? How can they tell that their staff are not being made complicit in someone’s sexual fetish ?
I have remembered seeing a transwoman in the lingerie dept of John Lewis twenty or so years ago- at the time I assumed, probably quite rightly, that this was a transsexual person, a rare occurrence, and I was slightly uncomfortable but not too worried. That is not the situation now.

*There seem to be more one trick ponies about than usual8

What you mean, people who are only really engaged when John Lewis is impacted?

datun - thanks will get back

Response from Bravissimo further to my earlier posts, this was in relation to their staff

Hi

Thank you for contacting us earlier on text chat.

I have spoken with my manager regarding your enquiry. Our staff and customer's safety is paramount for us and we do have procedures in place to protect them - such as staff are never alone in the store and management staff are always available in the shop. With regards to customers in the fitting rooms we do have locks on all of our changing room doors and always ask customers if they are happy to have a member of staff in the room with them when they change. We currently have no plans to change any of our procedures as we are find it works well for our staff and our customers.

I hope this helps and please let me know if there is anything else I can do.

Best wishes

Chloe

I’m a JL and Waitrose customer too and this has made me reconsider. So they can wave goodbye to the thousands and thousands I spend there every year. 😡

At least Bravissimo are responding but it is totally different model of shopping as any suspect behaviour would be picked up v quick.

The problem is not spending money is the only way many of us can show disapproval. Like others have said there is no political party who wants our votes either.

If it is really impossible for you not to shop these places they you can at least spend bare mim on essentials and leave it as that.

@SirVixofVixHall I think a lot of people aren’t well informed.

‘I have remembered seeing a transwoman in the lingerie dept of John Lewis twenty or so years ago- at the time I assumed, probably quite rightly, that this was a transsexual person, a rare occurrence, and I was slightly uncomfortable but not too worried. That is not the situation now.’

I think a lot of people still think like this without realising how bad this is getting. How women are being put in potentially dangerous and awful situations to satisfy men.

Amazon and AO must be lapping this up.

In my email (as suggested by PP earlier in thread) I asked - amongst other things - what provisions have been made for women and girls, who may have been victims of sexual assault, to feel "comfortable" in their changing rooms

I also asked them to confirm specifically in writing that their policy therefore is to allow biological males to have access to areas where girls and women are having bra fittings etc. Safeguarding etc etc.

Well, let's see. I do think the more specific direct questions/contact/emails they have to deal with the better, as it shows that so many women are concerned and to drive home the real implications of this total bollocks policy.

It's going to take incidents of 'inappropriate behaviour' to occur before they do anything, isn't it?

It would appear these males have been accommodated discreetly for years. Now the welcome mat has gone out to everyone, though, unfortunately there's likely to be an escalation in opportunist incidents.

Silencedwitness
Absolutely. Dh was talking to his mother, and she (Guardian reader) was very much “ oh we should be tolerant, these poor people “ etc. Until he told her how this was largely hetero people with penises, as per usual bullying people without penises...then she was shocked.
She had assumed all transpeople were a very small number of male feminine homosexuals with dysphoria, who wanted to appear as women and live “as women” whatever that means. So she saw it as kindness to be accepting and tolerant. When DH pointed out that what it means in reality is our 14 year old dd having to change alongside an adult man she felt rather differently.

Is there some kind of class legal action that we could take?

Surely by saying that they will deal with incidents after they've happened means these shops are knowingly putting women and girls at risk of such incidents taking place when they are in a vulnerable position despite sex being a protected characteristic under Equality Act legislation?

Have they consulted with anyone who has women's and girls' interests at heart before opening up their changing rooms to men? Have they done risk assessments?

They are also putting their staff at risk of having to deal with these incidents and 'take action'. I'd be interested to know what they do to 'empower' the staff.

Do they give them training about mitigating risks to women and girls now that any man can share a changing room with them?

Do they teach them how to identify hidden cameras and check the changing rooms every day to make sure a man hasn't hidden one in there?

Do they empower them to make sure a man isn't filming a woman or girl getting changed in the cubicle next to them?

I'm so angry.

We do not fit men and men are not able to go into our fitting rooms, our fitting rooms are women only and of course all of our staff in store are women. If a man presents as a woman, a trans person, we would fit them and would handle this a sensitively as possible for everyone in store. In most of our shops we have two fitting areas and so, where possible, we would fit in a separate area to make sure everyone is comfortable and we can support everyone in the shop.

This is no better. First they say the don't fit men. Then they say they will fit a man presenting as a woman. So all a perverted man has to do is state that he identifies as a woman (whether he actually believes that or not), and they have to fit him.

Sounds as though their fitters will not have a choice in whether they do this. Also, they haven't made it clear what will happen if only one changing area available which already has women in it.

I disagree that we should just not vote for self ID parties, as none of them are really against self ID yet.

Yes, quiz candidates on it, avoid Lib Dems, write to your MP. But boycotting stores WILL have an impact, especially as they are already struggling a bit, but importantly - let them know WHY you are boycotting. The more women that do this, the more likely they are to have a rethink. Third spaces is really not much to ask. That is kind and accommodating to trans people.

And also important.... spread the word. I am considering putting together some A5 posters with key facts, and distributing them around town.

Yes, posters who have said that they now won't buy X from John Lewis / whoever, also need to tell them that.

I think this can be life changing in more ways than one. Clearly good for my wallet and like a PP mentioned local business will be more supported. Waitrose is my nearest supermarket and I order a lot from JL website for click and collect there. No mo’.
Ocado boycott was hard but now I’m getting so pissed off it shouldn’t be difficult anymore.

@Justhadathought

you replied to my post

I've not come across you before on these boards, but if you had come across my posts, then you wouldn't be reacting in such an over-wrought way. Personally, think cancelling accounts and chopping up cards is a bit of an over-reaction."

I've been on these boards under this and other usernames for a long time. But so what if I hadn't been? What difference does that make?

Just because you may have posted stuff previously that I agree with, doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you say.

And I'm "reacting in an overwrought way"?

Because I don't wish to shop anymore, or bank/ have a credit card from a firm that allows self ID men in women's changing rooms, you say I'm overwrought, overreacting?

I am entitled to react in a way that works for me (and apparently a lot of other women share my view,)

I've not come across you before on these boards, but if you had come across my posts, then you wouldn't be reacting in such an over-wrought way. Personally, think cancelling accounts and chopping up cards is a bit of an over-reaction."

You're just missing the word hysterical there...

And yes, I will be telling M & S, JL, Waitrose etc exactly why they will no longer need to get my custom. Until they reverse this ill thought out policy.