John Lewis

[sybilshade]

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AllMumsey yes, same. i keep thinking of my Mum, who died three years ago. She would be 88 now. Almost all her clothes were from Marks and Spencer. It would have upset and frightened her to find that she could only use a space with men allowed.

Just I'm really interested to know why you are so keen to persuade us not to boycott stores

Read my detailed posts. How hard can that be? I'm not sure what else I can say now. Focus your political ire in the right places. The places that will really make a difference. Yesterday you were accusing me of not caring about women's rights or dignity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I just think that pointless gestures will do nothing other than inconvenience yourself. When you start looking at ethics in retail, then you'll have virtually nowhere left to shop.

I certainly understand concerns about safety and dignity, but practically, In the short term, I've never encountered a man in the women's changing area at John Lewis, and I'm in there virtually every week. I'll continue to lobby them though.

There lots of local butchers, grocers and independent clothes stores that could benefit

Personally not sure about the butchers ( being vegeterian).....but yes, do shop at smaller independents..that can only be good. But anyone thinking of switching to other big national brands, retailers or on-line shopping needs to thoroughly check those out. Hardly any of them are really ethical when you dig into it. At least J.L is a worker's co-operative, of sorts.

vegetarian

Just
I'm spoiling my ballot too.
I can also boycott places for reasons

It's made the Daily Mail and the comments do support the rights of women.

Virtually everyone supports single sex changing rooms - and that's the hypocrisy. If John Lewis, M & S etc cared enough to ask their customers, we would tell them what we want. Instead they listen to the toxic Stonewall.
So we just close our accounts and take our custom elsewhere. Idiots.

Just.

I don't need or want your unasked for suggestions or comments,

I'll do what I want, with no need for your permission or approval

No need to respond, I'm not interested in your opinion or views.

If I had any of these stores nearer than 40 miles away, I think I would go with a female friend or two , and loudly and noticeably use the men's changing area, even if just to pretend at trying stuff on. Apart from the fact that while the pervs are in the ladies area, making 'decent' men uncomfortable would make a real point, if it happened often enough.

Justhadathought I disagree with your view that boycotting John Lewis is pointless; on the contrary, I believe it is both simple and effective.

I may well be spoiling my ballot paper as a protest against self-id. I may also write letters of protest to MPs, carry placards while marching naked on Parliament, throw myself under the Queen’s horse. But the Government has multiple complex issues to consider and Brexit is top of their agenda right now. Effecting change at a political level is neither fast nor easy.

However, John Lewis’s raison d’etre is to sell stuff to people. If they choose not to accommodate my needs for a safe shopping experience for all women (biological females) because they would prefer to prioritise the feelings of some men in reckless abandonment of the law , then I will choose to not shop there. That’s a personal decision that may do nothing except, as you point out Just, make my life harder. However, if enough people share my views and act accordingly, then John Lewis will notice - and quickly. We are heading into peak selling season and all modern retailers are able to see their daily sales versus sales projections. I have already not bought birthday presents for two family members, plus a weekly Waitrose Shop. And I have told them why. If enough people follow suit, JL will need to reconsider their policies.

John Lewis is not a complex organisation like the Government, they could choose to change their policy right now, today, without any further debate. I will boycott them and their ilk until they do. A key aspect of lobbying is understanding what your opponent can’t afford to lose, and JL cannot exist without customers. I hope they will soon be forced to remember that.

So thanks for the advice Justhadathought but you do your politics, I’ll do mine.

Big business do more easily have the ear of Government don’t they. If they have drop in sales and backlash to this they at least can mention it and lobby in right places. It’s still a business that pays tax and GDP. Maybe there is tiny change someone can advise gem they can use the Equality Act after all. I mean very very small change but still.

The best we can do is boycott these stores.

First if we feel uncomfortable in changing rooms, obviously but also, these are businesses.

They took this decision not out of altruism but, I reckon, to appeal to a younger market for the future of the business, to try to build awareness that they are modern. They don't seem to have thought about us, but if they start to lose sales from us they are going to have to make a LOT of sales from younger/woker people who love the idea of mixed sex changing rooms, to compensate. A few more size XL panties sold won't make up for lots of lost sales of coats and other more expensive items.

I have emailed them just to ask. I’d like to see what the ‘company line’ is. I know others have done this but we can’t just stay quiet can we?

Akire you make a good point. If retailers start to lose money because of a ‘perceived’ Government policy, they will lobby against it. And because of their size and importance to the economy, they will be heard.

Great post SorryAuntLydia It's quite baffling that so much energy has been exerted by one poster trying to persuade the rest of us us not to boycott JL. Along with the assumption that many (most?) of us are not already politically involved with all sorts of groups / campaigns / efforts to protect sex base rights.

Boycotting companies who adopt anti women, anti safeguarding policies is precisely what women should be doing if we choose to. It is such a powerful tool to use. If their profits start reducing because women no longer shop there, then they will look again at this. All the glitter awards at champagne 'gravy train' dinners from Stonewall etc will mean nothing if they can't sell their goods.

Today I need to purchase a new laptop. My last two purchases were from JL. Today, that iro £1,000 purchase will come from a different company. One substantial sale lost because of their anti women stance.

Of course boycotting stores is a useful tool. And even if it doesn't immediately make any difference to their bottom line, it's raising the issue everywhere.

If we didn't do it, no newspaper would have reported on it. And that's another million people who wouldn't have read about it. Including MPs and those in power.

And the more people hear about it, the more people boycott the store. Targeting the profit of these companies, letting them know why, and telling everyone we possibly can, is spreading the word. Raising the profile.

Without women having done this over the last few years, the tide would not be turning in the way it is now.

It's certainly not a choice between lobbying your MP, and boycotting a shop. It's both.

As our retailers are so fond of telling us, every little helps.

And it really does.

When you do stuff like Safer Recruitment training or, y'know, have a working brain you learn that a major part of sadeguarding is just signalling to potential predators that you are not a soft target. So you have stuff in your ads that says 'we will DBS check everyone', 'references will be taken' even though those things are obvious - because people looking for a target will be deterred (a bit) by those things and will be looking for an organisation that is a little less systematic in its approach.

What JL and M and S could very easily do is say 'blah blah, important for everyone to feel comfortable, blah blah, committment to trans rights and women's rights, blah blah, separate changing available'. That signals 'we are not a soft target for abusers'.

Instead they have basically declared open house on the women's changing rooms.

They need better advice about how predators think and operate.

Well - I was about to but some new ceiling lamps (3) and we are about to have new windows so we’re going to redo the living and dining room from scratch (thank god). I had visited JL and they do some really nice furniture and lighting and have a design service. That’s gone then.

you learn that a major part of sadeguarding is just signalling to potential predators that you are not a soft target

This is such a very good point, thank you.
Presumably its not hard to do this either, but retailers just haven’t bothered.

Just.I don't need or want your unasked for suggestions or comments, I'll do what I want, with no need for your permission or approval No need to respond, I'm not interested in your opinion or views

If you don't want responses then don't pose questions, then.

And, quite frankly I've no further interest in discussing an issue with someone so rude; who makes things unnecessarily personal and insinuates that she cares more about women and children than others.

I wasn't targeting you in a personal manner. I trying to broaden out the discussion of what sorts of action will actually be most fruitful. This is a long term struggle to turn the juggernaut around.

If you feel that you can manage an ever growing list of boycotts that is up to you, but at least try to be consistent when doing so.

‘ As an inclusive business, our customers are welcome to use whichever fitting room makes them feel the most comfortable.

If you have any additional queries, please feel free to contact me.’

Sigh. Ok so round 2 🔔 🔔

Yep, I got a similar reply. As you say, round 2 with JL and M & S.

insinuates that she cares more about women and children than others.

Others being men. It is actually not naughty for women to organise and centre around their own needs. Any more than it's naughty for the RSPCA to not equally address heating for pensioners or the British Heart Foundation to save the donkeys.

It's also not naughty for women to prioritise women in women's changing spaces, which were intended to provide women with separate provision for males to meet specific needs for privacy, dignity and safety. That's the purpose of the space. The decisions about that space need to be made in the best interests of the users.

To declare that those spaces are being made mixed sex because a small percentage of males are unhappy about it.... there are many other ways to suppose those males and meet their needs.

This is about offering people born male more choice, better meeting of their feelings and more respect for their personal sense of identity. In order to achieve that, a significant group of people born female are being excluded from having any access to any changing facilities at all . Never mind showing the faintest respect for female feelings, choice and sense of identity: it's a foregone conclusion that its worthless when it's happening to someone with xx chromosomes.

And you want to scold women for daring to even imply they might place the interests of women above those of people born male?

Thanks @michelleoftheresistance

I do find Justhadathought 's posts very strange, indeed. Repeatedly telling posters we are wasting our time boycotting stores, trying to get posters to follow a particular set of behaviours, getting apparently annoyed when disagreed with, throwing out random accusations about my posts

"who makes things unnecessarily personal and insinuates that she cares more about women and children than others"

Too right I care about women and children! I care about men, also, but the topic under discussion primarily affects women and children so that's what I'm concentrating on.

Catmaiden you asked Justhadathought
JustI'm really interested to know why you are so keen to persuade us not to boycott stores and your reply when she told you was really rude.

I boycotted Tesco and The Times for years because of Shirley Porter and Rupert Murdoch- both managed fine without me. The irony now being I've ditched The Guardian in favour of The Times.

Has any retailer ever been brought down by a boycott? I won't be boycotting M&S (their fruit and flowers are so much better than any other supermarket's. I have tried buying flowers from the local women run florist but theirs are more expensive and don't last nearly as long) nor will I be boycotting Waitrose.

There isn't going to be a mass boycott of these shops. Of course you are free to boycott whomever you like but the idea that these shops are going to fall because of this issue is far fetched. It's the retail equivalent of spoiling your ballot paper.