Maya Forstater court case

[Bardonnay]

Sorry to link to the DM but they've covered Maya Forstater's upcoming court case here:
https://mol.im/a/7683207.

Maya's account of events is here and her post links to updates about the case: https://medium.com/@MForstater/i-lost-my-job-for-speaking-up-about-womens-rights-2af2186ae84

"The process of having surgery or hormone treatment cannot ultimately transform your sex,” Ms Harrison told the tribinal. “Every cell in my body has male chromosomes. I have a prostate. These things cannot be completely deconstructed. It is not possible to be biologically female. But that does not mean I can’t live a fulfilling life being treated as a woman.”

This.

Finally caught up with the thread, it's most inconvenient having to work and not being able to languish on a sofa with buckets of popcorn 🍿 to follow the action.

I really think this thread deserves to go in the Mumsnet classics. The ratio of LOLs surely meets the standard.

“The organisation’s position is that we make no distinction between sex and gender. If someone is in our space and they say that are a woman then they can have access to the single sex spaces. To deny them access means we would be infringing on their rights.”

Sex is a protected characteristic in the equality act. Gender is not.

One form of prohibited conduct under the EA is harassment, including on the grounds of sex (this is different from sexual harassment).

Harassment is when someone does something that violates someone else's dignity, or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for them - based on a protected characteristic.

This organisation have disregarded sex as a protected characteristic and have potentially harassed women in their workplace on the grounds of sex.

Are they back tomorrow or have they heard everyone now?

"Gender is a social construct." I bet the feminist movement is regretting that one now, seeing as how men would twist that to their own advantage.

I don't think they've heard any evidence on the "employee" issue so there must be more but I don't know if it's tomorrow.

I bet the feminist movement is regretting that one now, seeing as how men would twist that to their own advantage.

No, we still think gender is a social construct. Because it is.

We just don't think sex is. Because it isn't.

^^ Wot ShesDressedInBlackAgain said.

I would like to play myself in the musical... or maybe Scarlett Johansson could do it?

I was going to facetiously ask if you were white or Asian, but according to Mr Easley I guess that doesn’t matter now as you and Scarlett could be either.

Gender is a social construct." I bet the feminist movement is regretting that one now, seeing as how men would twist that to their own advantage
Nope, it's still a social construct, see Clair today.
Gender is feelings, presentation,
Sex is biological and always will be.
Some men will twist everything their advantage, but with human biology there is nothing to twist. Female or male. That's all there is biologically.

"Gender is a social construct." I bet the feminist movement is regretting that one now, seeing as how men would twist that to their own advantage

And here were we thinking that gender was fixed and immutable from birth.

The level of confused thinking is quite something.

I asked this at trans training at work and was told that because I have long hair I am gender conforming

Many years ago (1980s!) someone asked my boss why all the girls on her team had short hair and all the boys long hair. Without missing a beat, she said, 'So I can tell 'em apart.'

Isn’t telling lies in a courtroom against the law, or is this another case of not questioning someone else’s reality?

Not the point of the thread, but I've been involved in two ETs. The respondents and their witnesses lied repeatedly (not a surprise).

But the one that shocked me was the respondent's solicitor lying about sending a pre-trial letter. It was one of many she told to cover her own incompetence, but this one was such a blatant lie, easily disproven, that the judge lost her shit and told the solicitor off, to stop lying.

Nothing happened, though. Nobody was ever punished - although watching her squirm under the judge's withering glare is something I'll always look back on fondly! I wanted to report her to the law society but the complainant barrister said nothing would happen.

someone asked my boss why all the girls on her team had short hair and all the boys long hair. Without missing a beat, she said, 'So I can tell 'em apart.'

Love it.

Ok so what have I missed?

Only joking - I'll trawl through the thread.

Basically placemarking, back for updates tomorrow.

It's taken me all evening to catch up here and on Twitter OhHolyJesus
Well worth going back to the beginning and reading it all. Today has brought some gems. I wish I could have been in the court room.

Just catching up on the thread ♥️♥️♥️♥️

Back again tomorrow for closing submissions from Anya, and Jane Russell for the other side.

Then judge will go away to deliberate.

Hope you're feeling positive Maya - we're right behind you.

Well done Maya, this all must be so stressful. You’re doing a great thing for all of us, thank you xx

The organisation’s position is that we make no distinction between sex and gender. If someone is in our space and they say that are a woman then they can have access to the single sex spaces. To deny them access means we would be infringing on their rights.”

It is driving me nuts, that even when someone is making the political choice not to distinguish between ’sex’ and ‘gender’, and they know this is a political choice, they still haven’t grasped that ‘gender’ and ‘gender identity’ are two very different things.

Gender is socially constructed, and includes gendered socialisation and how other people interact with us, e.g. women are socialised to be caring, kind and considerate of other people’s feelings, especially mens. Men are socialised into a sense of entitlement, especially towards women.

Gender identity is, apparently, an internal, subjective feeling.

THESE ARE NOT THE SAME THINGS.

MF, very best wishes to you and your team. And lots of thanks for going ahead with this.

This tribunal has already produced lots of quotes in favour of fact and sanity that women are biological women, and biological men are not women!

Maya, I thought my head was going to explode when I read what was said during the Tribunal. As ridiculous as all of this, it must also be very stressful. I’m sorry that it has happened to you but thank you for being a test case. This will have (hopefully, positive) ramifications for all workers in the UK.

Good luck Maya!

Morning from your local tech nerd. In an effort to save Wild Woman's live tweets from the reporting squad, I've saved everything here:

infantineadeliepenguin.htmlpasta.com

(I didn't pick the url - it gets randomly generated - although 'infantine penguin' is certainly one way to describe some of the characters in that courtroom)

I asked this at trans training at work and was told that because I have long hair I am gender conforming and therefore it’s completely different and I don’t understand the struggles of the true non-binary folk so I should probably just listen.

So it really does just come down clothing/grooming/stereotypes then?

But I wonder just how gender non-conforming you have to be to become "non binary" or trans. For instance, today at work I'm wearing flat shoes with socks bought in the men's section of the shop. Does that make me non-binary? What about on weekends when I wear men's t-shirts as well? And my hair reaches my jawline. If I let it grow two inches more would that make me a woman? Cut it two inches less, would that make me a man? My head is swimming trying to work out all these new rules.