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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?'

110 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/11/2019 20:07

Fantastic thread copied over from Twitter. @gigilarue4, a US woman, posted it yesterday.
***
Imagine, if you will, your thirteen year old daughter coming to you, out of the blue with some news. Imagine your happy, great looking, healthy, smart, successful, socially active child coming to you and saying tearfully “Mom, I’m too fat. I’m not supposed to be 105 pounds. I’m supposed to be 65 pounds. I hate to look in the mirror and I hate my body this way”.

Suddenly, they start wearing baggy jeans, heavy sweatshirts and oversized clothes to make themselves appear smaller. They spend hours on the internet looking at pictures of 65 pound people who have successfully achieved their goal with excessive dieting and liposuction. They become obsessed with every bite of food they take, after a lifetime of loving French fries, pizza, ice cream, pasta, cooking- suddenly that passion for food has evaporated. All they think about is how happy they will be when they get to be 65 pounds.

You talk to the counselor at their school. She says, “Awww…talk to this person, she’s an expert”, and she hands you a business card. The person is a doctor at Children’s Hospital, and she has an Eating Disorder clinic that is world famous. You call and explain your situation to her social worker.

The social worker says that you kid can come in and be put on a liquid diet of 500 calories a day and will reach her goal weight of 65 pounds in a few months. They can then do liposuction on the areas that didn’t thin out they way they should have.

You pause, certain you misheard her and say, “Excuse me? She’s supposed to be 105 pounds. That’s a healthy weight”, & the social worker says, ”Well, you need to accept that you now have a 65 pound child. The suicide rate for kids with this issue is 40%. Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?”

You obviously want your kid alive so you ask about therapy. The social worker says “We don’t find mental health evaluations useful. These kids just know who they are and once they realize this about
themselves, parents need to step out of the way and let them take this journey. If we have to involve the law to get parents on the right side of this, we will. That’s a last resort, but it happens.I do have a therapist who is also 65 pounds, and they can talk to your kid about
how the process works”.

You say thank you and hang up. Something doesn’t feel right. You call a few other therapists and they either don’t work with kids or they have a very limited knowledge of this particular Eating Disorder. A few say they specialize in this issue and have had several patients that have eventually all gotten to 65 pounds. “Nobody in my practice has ever not gone down the road”, they say, “They just know what’s right for them”.

In the following weeks, your kid stops eating and develops depression, anxiety and spends too much time looking at emaciated people on Instagram. Every conversation is about food or weight-loss, every meal is excruciating. Any attempts to use logic like, “65 pounds is not a healthy weight and impossible to maintain that long term without serious health effects” is met with anger and accusations of invalidating her authentic self.

You research more and find that the consensus of all of the major medical organizations- Pediatric Endocrine Society, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medial Association-is that once your kid decides they are supposed to be 65 pounds, there’s nothing anyone can do. They just know, and you need to support them. Simply having the thought is enough to proceed with the liquid diet and liposuction.

Any attempt to reason with them or convince them to nourish themselves is considered child abuse conversion therapy and laws are enacted to prevent therapists who might be concerned about their mental well being from addressing it.

You come across several websites created by kids who did this exact thing- who are now older and their bodies are permanently destroyed from adverse effects of long term starvation.Their brains, organs and metabolic system is out of whack and it will never be the same. No matter how much they try to regulate it, they will never be able to get back their once healthy body. They wish they’d been given an alternative immediate affirmation of their misconception that they were overweight. They wish the doctors had told them no.

Now replace “65 pounds” with “trans”. That’s what this feels like.
***

OP posts:
KateFoster · 11/11/2019 20:12

But it's not though is it

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/11/2019 20:13

What do you feel is the difference, Kate?

OP posts:
MeClavdivs · 11/11/2019 20:15

But it's not though is it

In what way?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/11/2019 20:20

The parallels I see are:

  1. Minor child feels something is wrong with her body, against all reason.
  2. Parent feels child is wrong, seeks help.
  3. All professionals shrug shoulders and say 'Your child knows best, we will help child to achieve what she wants. The alternative is worse.'
  4. Evidence from older teens who now wish they had been challenged on their false beliefs is ignored, in spite of the fact that their health has suffered.
OP posts:
eurochick · 11/11/2019 20:25

I've long found the difference in treatment (both societal and medical) of weight related body dysphoria and genital related body dysphoria to be baffling.

MeClavdivs · 11/11/2019 20:28

@eurochick a close friend suffers from body dysmorphia (believing she is horribly ugly; she isn’t) and is having treatment.

I’d never thought about it before but she’s having talk therapy, not plastic surgery!

ahhgoongoongoonhaveacupoftea · 11/11/2019 20:46

This is too american. It's not relatable to us on the UK. Also very too dramatic.

MIdgebabe · 11/11/2019 20:51

I find it relatable and I am uk

7Days · 11/11/2019 20:54

I find it relatable and I'm stuck in the middle of the two of you

Daughterofmabel · 11/11/2019 20:55

Its a brilliant analogy

Theredjellybean · 11/11/2019 20:55

I get the analogy and it's not American or over dramatic.
I have a dsd in recovery from anorexia and agree that eating dis young people get treatment to restore them to healthy weights whether they think it is right or wrong.
The only difference with trans is anorexics do not actually stop.. They say things like "I will be happy at 65 lbs, that is what I am supposed to be".. But anorexia is never satisfied so then they believe they will he happier and life perfect is they get to 45lbs or whatever.
Body dysmorphia is like anorexia as in no matter what procedures a sufferer has done they never feel happy.
True trans should be happy once they are transitioned

stillathing · 11/11/2019 21:04

No analogy can be perfect but I'm in the UK & much of this makes sense to me.

Having been to a girls' school, several of my friends are recovering from the eating disorders they had in their teens. Some of them say that if they were growing up now, they'd definitely have been attracted by trans ideology. This is supported by an older friend of mine who teaches in a private school & reckons that today's trans teens are the girls who would have had an eating disorder a decade or so ago.

It is a tragedy that professionals are now seemingly discouraged from exploring the traumas that lie beneath these cases.

ShiveringCoyote · 11/11/2019 21:15

Eating disorders, transgender ideology and girls with asd (diagnosed and undiagnosed) are intrinsically linked.

MIdgebabe · 11/11/2019 21:20

The rub being you can't actually transition , a girl can not become a boy, they can look and sound superficially more like a boy, at the expense of some quite severe treatment, but they will still not be a boy

I understand that many anorexics do manage to grow into a stable and happy life. Whilst they may always have problems, those issues no longer fully define them. I would suggest ( based only on my personal experience ) that gender dismorphia is similar, in that many girls grow into women who can go whole days without feeling disgusted by their body. Who can live happy successful lives whilst knowing all the time that they are female

FenellaVelour · 11/11/2019 21:31

I’m not sure it’s the most helpful analogy.

I understand what she’s trying to say, but it’s not analogous to children presenting with gender dysphoria. If those children were being medically irreversibly treated or altered to a point it risks their life, yes perhaps I can see it. And yes, medicalising children is a genuine and serious concern.

However, some children will grow up to actually be trans adults, and this will be who they are. Nobody would ever grow up to be 65lbs. So it’s not analogous.

something2say · 11/11/2019 21:36

I know of an exact case like this. Male to female, and now back to male, with a realisation that it didnt solve anything and he wished someone had dug deeper.

MeClavdivs · 11/11/2019 21:40

However, some children will grow up to actually be trans adults, and this will be who they are. Nobody would ever grow up to be 65lbs. So it’s not analogous.

The thing is that you can grow up to be a trans adult, absolutely, but you can’t grow up to be a member of the opposite sex. And that’s the analogy that’s being drawn.

MIdgebabe · 11/11/2019 21:40

What does grow up to be a trans adult actually mean though? We could say that I have grown up to be a trans adult without any medical intervention whatsoever.

There isn't any real evidence that medicalising children is actually having a greater positive effect than letting them be, which has been the default for centuries. Suicide rates in young people are rising despite the hugely increased access to transition that is now available ( correlation only)

I am also,pretty sure that the more dramatic the medical treatment, the shorter the life of the patient. In some cases, it will be very short as surgery always carries various risks.

Michelleoftheresistance · 11/11/2019 21:44

I've read many accounts from people who are trans where transition hasn't been the magic answer, and hasn't resulted in the relief from the distress/trauma they were trying to escape. Miranda Yardley, as an older adult with a long life view of their transition years ago has written some very insightful articles about their own slow coming to terms with dysphoria and transition and what it could and couldn't achieve. And they were an adult, not a child being galloped into it by professionals being controlled by other adults with no intention of surgically transitioning, giving up their own sexual pleasure and many of whom have fathered children. Nor were they surrounded by those same adults gagging professionals and enabling circumventing of standard checks and balances to prevent experimentation on children with potentially devastating consequences for them.

MeClavdivs · 11/11/2019 21:44

What does grow up to be a trans adult actually mean though? We could say that I have grown up to be a trans adult without any medical intervention whatsoever.

An excellent point.

Michelleoftheresistance · 11/11/2019 21:45

(Sorry, that was in answer to the poster who mentioned if 'true trans' then transition would lead to happiness. Miranda is most definitely true trans.)

Ereshkigal · 11/11/2019 21:49

The thing is that you can grow up to be a trans adult, absolutely, but you can’t grow up to be a member of the opposite sex. And that’s the analogy that’s being drawn.

Yes, I think this distinction is key.

OhHolyJesus · 11/11/2019 21:53

It strikes a cord with me. I think body dysmorphia and gender dysmorphia are comparable.

FenellaVelour · 11/11/2019 21:55

What does grow up to be a trans adult actually mean though? We could say that I have grown up to be a trans adult without any medical intervention whatsoever.

Yes, certainly someone could present as the opposite gender to their biological sex, though most would be at least taking hormones to do so.
But that should be for adults to deal with, not children.

I oppose medicalising children and certainly I am concerned at the responses which encourage intervention rather than support. However while I would suggest the “watch and wait” or a neutral therapeutic approach, you wouldn’t “watch and wait” with someone with anorexia. I can see that in some cases the underlying issues are similar, but they aren’t the same thing.

I don’t disagree with what the poster is getting at, I just don’t think it’s a strong analogy.

JellySlice · 11/11/2019 22:07

What is 'true trans', anyway? It is undeniable that people exist who wish to present themselves as the opposite sex, or who are deeply unhappy with their sexed body, or with the society's sex-stereotypes. But none of them have changed sex. None have or ever will transition from one sex to the other. What about detransitioners? Are or were they 'true trans'?

Plenty of anorexic teenagers grow up into anorexic adults, still struggling with the dissonance between their body's reality and their own beliefs, and with society's expectations. Plenty grow up into adults with no eating disorder...but a certain sensitivity, where they know that stress, or something else, could trigger a relapse. And there are others who recover completely and are able to accept and love their body as it is.

Which of them was or is 'true anorexic'?

It is an excellent and logical parallel, which many of us have pointed out before. Gender dysphoria is the only dysphoria which is affirmed. It is the only dysphoria which is treated by causing permanent, irrevocable and harmful changes to the person's body (and mind, too).