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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?'

110 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/11/2019 20:07

Fantastic thread copied over from Twitter. @gigilarue4, a US woman, posted it yesterday.
***
Imagine, if you will, your thirteen year old daughter coming to you, out of the blue with some news. Imagine your happy, great looking, healthy, smart, successful, socially active child coming to you and saying tearfully “Mom, I’m too fat. I’m not supposed to be 105 pounds. I’m supposed to be 65 pounds. I hate to look in the mirror and I hate my body this way”.

Suddenly, they start wearing baggy jeans, heavy sweatshirts and oversized clothes to make themselves appear smaller. They spend hours on the internet looking at pictures of 65 pound people who have successfully achieved their goal with excessive dieting and liposuction. They become obsessed with every bite of food they take, after a lifetime of loving French fries, pizza, ice cream, pasta, cooking- suddenly that passion for food has evaporated. All they think about is how happy they will be when they get to be 65 pounds.

You talk to the counselor at their school. She says, “Awww…talk to this person, she’s an expert”, and she hands you a business card. The person is a doctor at Children’s Hospital, and she has an Eating Disorder clinic that is world famous. You call and explain your situation to her social worker.

The social worker says that you kid can come in and be put on a liquid diet of 500 calories a day and will reach her goal weight of 65 pounds in a few months. They can then do liposuction on the areas that didn’t thin out they way they should have.

You pause, certain you misheard her and say, “Excuse me? She’s supposed to be 105 pounds. That’s a healthy weight”, & the social worker says, ”Well, you need to accept that you now have a 65 pound child. The suicide rate for kids with this issue is 40%. Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?”

You obviously want your kid alive so you ask about therapy. The social worker says “We don’t find mental health evaluations useful. These kids just know who they are and once they realize this about
themselves, parents need to step out of the way and let them take this journey. If we have to involve the law to get parents on the right side of this, we will. That’s a last resort, but it happens.I do have a therapist who is also 65 pounds, and they can talk to your kid about
how the process works”.

You say thank you and hang up. Something doesn’t feel right. You call a few other therapists and they either don’t work with kids or they have a very limited knowledge of this particular Eating Disorder. A few say they specialize in this issue and have had several patients that have eventually all gotten to 65 pounds. “Nobody in my practice has ever not gone down the road”, they say, “They just know what’s right for them”.

In the following weeks, your kid stops eating and develops depression, anxiety and spends too much time looking at emaciated people on Instagram. Every conversation is about food or weight-loss, every meal is excruciating. Any attempts to use logic like, “65 pounds is not a healthy weight and impossible to maintain that long term without serious health effects” is met with anger and accusations of invalidating her authentic self.

You research more and find that the consensus of all of the major medical organizations- Pediatric Endocrine Society, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medial Association-is that once your kid decides they are supposed to be 65 pounds, there’s nothing anyone can do. They just know, and you need to support them. Simply having the thought is enough to proceed with the liquid diet and liposuction.

Any attempt to reason with them or convince them to nourish themselves is considered child abuse conversion therapy and laws are enacted to prevent therapists who might be concerned about their mental well being from addressing it.

You come across several websites created by kids who did this exact thing- who are now older and their bodies are permanently destroyed from adverse effects of long term starvation.Their brains, organs and metabolic system is out of whack and it will never be the same. No matter how much they try to regulate it, they will never be able to get back their once healthy body. They wish they’d been given an alternative immediate affirmation of their misconception that they were overweight. They wish the doctors had told them no.

Now replace “65 pounds” with “trans”. That’s what this feels like.
***

OP posts:
ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 07:52

@MIdgebabe

The worst mental health is likely from societal attitudes and discrimination once the physical signs of transition are present. If they started to have the body they felt was theirs AND society treated them without prejudice, they'd likely be very happy.

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 07:53

Lack of gender affirming surgery only causes real trauma and upsets if you have previously told someone that this will solve all their problems. The whole thing is creating a market

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 07:54

Ah. They would feel better if everyone was nicer!

Or how about we get society to treat all people with respect so that most of the drivers for transition and disconnect with the body don't exist in the first place.

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 07:54

Not untrue at all. Lack if access to gender firming surgery causes lots of emotional turmoil and that leads to physical decline in health

There is no evidence that surgery relieves the mental health issues in the long term, the surgeries are experimental and medicalise a person for the rest of their lives with the copious number of complications, and this is particularly relevant to children. There are a number of active threads discussing this right now: the Trans Kids thread and Fracks Reference Thread. Please read.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 07:54

The overriding evidence is that we have not lost thousands of women

Suicide amongst trans women is very high. Suicide amongst trans men is slightly lower. Who are you talking about here? Because you say women but you're talking about trans people and from your tone, I sincerely doubt you refer to trans women as women, so I can only assume you're referring to trans men when you attempt to deny the suicide stats.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 07:56

@notbadconsidering

Children don't have surgery. What are you talking about?

The mental health outcomes of trans people is largely due to discrimination. Not because they are confused about being trans. They don't understand why people like the majority of Mumsnet insist on making their lives so awful.

JellySlice · 12/11/2019 07:57

Lack if access to the 65lb causes lots of emotional turmoil and that leads to physical decline in health

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 07:58

@MIdgebabe

Or how about you treat everyone with respect by giving them the space to do what they feel necessary with their body and using a cubicle if you're paranoid about your own? Just an idea.

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 08:01

ChilledBee

Can you provide some evidence that surgery improves mental health outcomes in the long run?

I referenced the threads about children because this thread is also about children. The main push currently is for surgery to naturally follow hormone therapy for children.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 08:01

Anyway, like with most of the disgraceful and discriminatory posts about trans people on here, I've had my fill of rampant prejudice and bigotry. I'm out so don't bother tag me. Keep your 2nd wave rad fem business to yourselves :-D

JellySlice · 12/11/2019 08:02

Children don't have surgery. What are you talking about?

Legally, an 18yo is considered an adult (though even then not entirely, eg I think that an 18yo cannot adopt a child)

Medically, it is recognised that both brain and body do not reach physical maturity until early to mid 20s.

So, yes, surgery is being performed on people who are physically still children in many ways.

Themyscira · 12/11/2019 08:02

@ChilledBee did you deliberately misunderstand me, or are you really that dense? I'm baffled that adults can't see that groomed and abused children are slipping through the cracks via unproven and under-researched policies and procedures. (Not an opinion, tavistock has admitted to this)

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 08:04

www.pcori.org/research-results/2013/examining-health-outcomes-people-who-are-transgender

What was the research about?
People who are transgender have a gender identity that differs from the male or female sex assigned to them at birth. Some transgender people get gender-affirming therapies to change their bodies to match their gender identity. Examples of gender-affirming therapies include surgery or taking hormones such as estrogen or testosterone.

The research team wanted to learn about health outcomes for transgender people. To do this, the team compared certain health measures among people who are transgender with the same measures among people who aren’t transgender. The study also looked at health outcomes for transgender people who did and didn’t receive gender-affirming therapies.

What were the results?
Mental health. Nearly all mental health conditions the research team looked at, such as depression, were more common among transgender people than people who aren’t transgender. Self-harm and thoughts about suicide were more common among transgender youth ages 10 to 17 years than nontransgender youth of the same age.
Cancers. Compared with men who aren’t transgender, transgender women had a lower risk of prostate cancer and a higher risk of cancers that arise from endocrine glands, such as thyroid cancer.
Blood clots and strokes. Transgender women who received estrogen had a higher risk of blood clots and strokes compared with men and women who aren’t transgender. Their risk for blood clots and strokes increased over time.
Body image. Transgender people who received more gender-affirming therapies reported that they felt better about how their bodies looked and how other people saw them compared with transgender people who received fewer or no therapies.
Who was in the study?
The research team looked at health records for 6,459 transgender people and 127,668 nontransgender people. All were members of three Kaiser Permanente health systems in Georgia and California. In addition, 697 transgender members took a survey.

What did the research team do?
Using health records for transgender and nontransgender people from three health systems over 10 years, the team compared the risk of blood clots or strokes. The team also looked at other health outcomes, such as cancer and mental health conditions.

The team sent a survey to transgender people whose health records showed that they had received gender-affirming therapies. The survey asked transgender people about the therapies they received. It also asked how they felt about the way their bodies looked after receiving any therapies.

A group of transgender people, advocates, doctors, and health system staff worked with the research team during the study.

What were the limits of the study?
This study looked at records from patients in three health systems in two states. Results may be different for patients in other health systems or for people without health insurance. The research team can’t say for sure that the risks for blood clots and strokes found among transgender patients in the study are a result of hormone therapy. Other health problems may have led to the blood clots and strokes.

Future research could look at other health benefits and risks of gender-affirming therapies for transgender patients.

How can people use the results?
These results can help transgender people who get gender-affirming therapies and their doctors be more aware of possible health problems, such as blood clots or strokes. Doctors may also want to ask transgender patients about possible mental health needs. Transgender women and their doctors may also want to be on the lookout for thyroid and some other cancers.

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 08:05

And ChilledBee

You said they are physically healthier. Can you explain how someone is physically healthier if they have to visit a surgeon repeatedly for complications of their surgeries their bodies didn’t need? The complication rates are high in surgeries such as orchidectomy, penectomy and cavity formation for example.

JellySlice · 12/11/2019 08:08

The mental health outcomes of trans people is largely due to discrimination.

Discrimination from their own sex class. Men need to accept transwomen as full members of their sex class, and to accept that they widen the boundaries of what it means to be a man. This is even enshrined in law.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 08:09

@JellySlice

So rather than the 0.something percent of "children under the age of 25" who are trans,why isn't your focus on the 99.everything per cent of "children under 25" who are working full time, getting married, having kids, fighting wars, having boob jobs and lip fillers and looking after "proper grown ups" who should be looking after them given they are essentially minors. Surely they arent mature enough for all that and it is a travesty that we let these massive children make these sorts of decisions.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 08:11

@NotBadConsidering

Physical health is intrinsically linked to mental health. Someone who is mentally well is more likely to seek timely medical advice for physical health issues and engage in preventative measures too. All this is available from a google search, lovely.

Do one.

I'm seriously out now. I'm not here to educate the masses about shit you can learn on Youtube.

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 08:13

@ChilledBee
This isn't about changing facilities. How trivialising

This is about children's lives and what's best for children.

It seems that you dont respect the experiances of transpeople , and you only accept people as trans if they surgically alter themselves. And you encourage harmful actions by propagating a myth that it will help.

I don't accept someone else telling me what to think, what to feel, how to be , how to present

Themyscira · 12/11/2019 08:13

Off you pop hun.

ShonaAndTheWaterHorse · 12/11/2019 08:14

I really think you have no idea what it's like to have a hatred of your body and a simultaneous hatred of the gender expectations that are forced upon you simple because you have a certain body

What? That soundsexactlylike the experience of most women, especially as we go through adolescence and come to terms with how the world treats us

I don't think it is remotely the experience of most women- it might be the experience of women who post on FWR but I've never personally come across the sort of loathing of one's body which is taken as normal on FWR.

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 08:15

That study does not look at mental health outcomes. It looks at body image and perception as an outcome and “passing”. There is nothing to say their depression or suicidality improved and there is no clarity on what affirming therapies were counted. It also states in the Limitations:

Because this study was an observational data analysis of an EHR cohort and a cross-sectional survey, the results do not establish causality

Those surveyed are also physically worse off. Cardiovascular risk increase is a well documented side effect of oestrogen. It’s also worth noting that the BMJ published recently trans women having higher rates of (male) breast cancer as a result.

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 08:19

Physical health is intrinsically linked to mental health. Someone who is mentally well is more likely to seek timely medical advice for physical health issues and engage in preventative measures too. All this is available from a google search, lovely.

It’s also freely available that many people who have had affirming hormone therapy and surgery spend a much greater part of their lives visiting doctors to deal with the complications and many still don’t feel like their dysphoria has been relieved. Maybe do a search, lovely.

Ereshkigal · 12/11/2019 08:19

The mental health outcomes of trans people is largely due to discrimination.

Citation please. And I don't mean, "something I read on a Stonewall leaflet"

Ereshkigal · 12/11/2019 08:24

It’s also freely available that many people who have had affirming hormone therapy and surgery spend a much greater part of their lives visiting doctors to deal with the complications and many still don’t feel like their dysphoria has been relieved.

YY, and haven't got the figures to hand, but isn't it them who have higher suicide rates afterwards? Because it isn't children, despite what is claimed by certain propaganda the hard of thinking may read.

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 08:24

Well one could argue , perhaps uncontroversionally, that the mental health of women who don't fit the gender expectation is adversely affected by discrimination in society . You don't need to call them trans for a start

Seems to me far healthier overall to remove that gender based expectation and someone's boobs but hey ho