Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?'

110 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/11/2019 20:07

Fantastic thread copied over from Twitter. @gigilarue4, a US woman, posted it yesterday.
***
Imagine, if you will, your thirteen year old daughter coming to you, out of the blue with some news. Imagine your happy, great looking, healthy, smart, successful, socially active child coming to you and saying tearfully “Mom, I’m too fat. I’m not supposed to be 105 pounds. I’m supposed to be 65 pounds. I hate to look in the mirror and I hate my body this way”.

Suddenly, they start wearing baggy jeans, heavy sweatshirts and oversized clothes to make themselves appear smaller. They spend hours on the internet looking at pictures of 65 pound people who have successfully achieved their goal with excessive dieting and liposuction. They become obsessed with every bite of food they take, after a lifetime of loving French fries, pizza, ice cream, pasta, cooking- suddenly that passion for food has evaporated. All they think about is how happy they will be when they get to be 65 pounds.

You talk to the counselor at their school. She says, “Awww…talk to this person, she’s an expert”, and she hands you a business card. The person is a doctor at Children’s Hospital, and she has an Eating Disorder clinic that is world famous. You call and explain your situation to her social worker.

The social worker says that you kid can come in and be put on a liquid diet of 500 calories a day and will reach her goal weight of 65 pounds in a few months. They can then do liposuction on the areas that didn’t thin out they way they should have.

You pause, certain you misheard her and say, “Excuse me? She’s supposed to be 105 pounds. That’s a healthy weight”, & the social worker says, ”Well, you need to accept that you now have a 65 pound child. The suicide rate for kids with this issue is 40%. Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?”

You obviously want your kid alive so you ask about therapy. The social worker says “We don’t find mental health evaluations useful. These kids just know who they are and once they realize this about
themselves, parents need to step out of the way and let them take this journey. If we have to involve the law to get parents on the right side of this, we will. That’s a last resort, but it happens.I do have a therapist who is also 65 pounds, and they can talk to your kid about
how the process works”.

You say thank you and hang up. Something doesn’t feel right. You call a few other therapists and they either don’t work with kids or they have a very limited knowledge of this particular Eating Disorder. A few say they specialize in this issue and have had several patients that have eventually all gotten to 65 pounds. “Nobody in my practice has ever not gone down the road”, they say, “They just know what’s right for them”.

In the following weeks, your kid stops eating and develops depression, anxiety and spends too much time looking at emaciated people on Instagram. Every conversation is about food or weight-loss, every meal is excruciating. Any attempts to use logic like, “65 pounds is not a healthy weight and impossible to maintain that long term without serious health effects” is met with anger and accusations of invalidating her authentic self.

You research more and find that the consensus of all of the major medical organizations- Pediatric Endocrine Society, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medial Association-is that once your kid decides they are supposed to be 65 pounds, there’s nothing anyone can do. They just know, and you need to support them. Simply having the thought is enough to proceed with the liquid diet and liposuction.

Any attempt to reason with them or convince them to nourish themselves is considered child abuse conversion therapy and laws are enacted to prevent therapists who might be concerned about their mental well being from addressing it.

You come across several websites created by kids who did this exact thing- who are now older and their bodies are permanently destroyed from adverse effects of long term starvation.Their brains, organs and metabolic system is out of whack and it will never be the same. No matter how much they try to regulate it, they will never be able to get back their once healthy body. They wish they’d been given an alternative immediate affirmation of their misconception that they were overweight. They wish the doctors had told them no.

Now replace “65 pounds” with “trans”. That’s what this feels like.
***

OP posts:
LimaOscarLima · 11/11/2019 22:08

I think that's a good analogy, gender dysmorphia is a mental illness just like body dysmorphia and should be treated as a metal illness.
I sometimes think about what things will be like in 100 years and hope that people are shocked looking back at us allowing people to transition, the same as how we're shocked today at healthcare 100 years ago like mental asylums and lobotomies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 11/11/2019 22:09

Watch and wait doesn't mean do nothing. Professionals shouldn't just stand back and see what happens if the child is distressed. There should be talking therapy of some sort, treatment for any depression/anxiety and any other issues, possibly family therapy.

OP posts:
MIdgebabe · 11/11/2019 22:16

I don't present as the opposite gender, it's not an act I perform. That would not be possible without medical intervention as I have a very female form.

I really dislike that form. Dislike? Abhor? Pointless load of wobbling weight bashing around.

I don't identify as a woman. My behaviours and thought patterns and interests are more consistent with those more typical of men.

In fact I see worry about presentation as a very female thing. That's what gets me through some days, it's just a body. Get over it,

I really think you have no idea what it's like to have a hatred of your body and a simultaneous hatred of the gender expectations that are forced upon you simple because you have a certain body, it's a double whammy if you like.

testing987654321 · 11/11/2019 22:24

Hatred of your own body and hatred of the gendered expectations doesn't make you really the opposite sex.

It makes you someone who has a condition that causes you to hate your body.

Feeling like the gendered expectations don't fit your personality is just completely normal. I would say most women on FWR seem to feel that.

FenellaVelour · 11/11/2019 22:30

Watch and wait doesn't mean do nothing. Professionals shouldn't just stand back and see what happens if the child is distressed. There should be talking therapy of some sort, treatment for any depression/anxiety and any other issues, possibly family therapy.

Yes, hence my mention of neutral therapy, by “neutral” I mean not leading the child or setting an agenda, rather providing them with therapeutic support to unpick and understand their feelings.

MIdgebabe · 11/11/2019 22:31

Nothing can Make you the opposite sex.

You can however feel that you should have been the opposite sex. That something went wrong somewhere

If the argument is that you are only trans if you take some particular action ( you must have a mAstecomny) then you can't be trans until you have that operation. So you can't have a trans child.

If on the other hand it's to do with how you feel towards your body and gender expectations, then you don't need to d anything, you are always trans, it's just you. if you don't need to do anything, then why do something that is provably harmful that has no certain or even probabilistic positive effect?

JellySlice · 11/11/2019 23:14

You can however feel that you should have been the opposite sex. That something went wrong somewhere

You can however feel that you should weigh 65lb. That something went wrong somewhere

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 02:46

I think it works well as an analogy. The diagnostic criteria for anorexia nervosa under DSM 5 includes:

Disturbance in the way one’s body weight or shape is experienced, undue influence of body shape and weight on self-evaluation

Exchange body weight for sex and it’s no different.

NonnyMouse1337 · 12/11/2019 04:34

It's a good analogy and shows the contrast in how eating disorders and body dysmorphia are tackled versus the completely uncritical approach in transgenderism and in dealing with children who are distressed and obsessed with the gendered expectations around their bodies.

BowermansNose · 12/11/2019 05:29

The big problem with the analogy is that being 65 pounds is inherently dangerous and life threatening in a way that being trans isn’t (that’s not to say that some of the effects of medical treatment if someone wanted to transition aren’t pretty brutal). In effect, the adviser would be saying “do you want a dead kid or a dead kid? The choice is exactly how they die.”

Cwenthryth · 12/11/2019 05:47

I really think you have no idea what it's like to have a hatred of your body and a simultaneous hatred of the gender expectations that are forced upon you simple because you have a certain body
What? That sounds exactly like the experience of most women, especially as we go through adolescence and come to terms with how the world treats us. I think very many of us who have come to gender critical feminist views feel or have felt exactly this way. We just identified the issue as living in a patriarchal society/social conditioning of gender stereotypes/internalised misogyny (deeply, deeply ingrained) and sought to change and work on that, rather than decide that all that gender stereotype stuff is fine and dandy, s’just that our gendered soul got put in the wrong body.

I saw the anorexia analogy on Twitter the other day, I think it’s not perfect but makes a reasonable point.

MeClavdivs · 12/11/2019 06:09

What? That sounds exactly like the experience of most women, especially as we go through adolescence and come to terms with how the world treats us.

This. You should see my diary entries from when I was about 16 and saw how it was gonna be from then on.

Backinthecloset123 · 12/11/2019 06:16

I think it's a reasonable comparison.
The social contagion can be very similar too. 'Ani' forums etc.

JellySlice · 12/11/2019 06:59

The big problem with the analogy is that being 65 pounds is inherently dangerous and life threatening in a way that being trans isn’t.

With anorexia, the sufferer can achieve the target condition without medical intervention. With trans, the sufferer cannot achieve the target condition without medical intervention.

Either way, the target condition is inherently dangerous, and requires continued medical intervention to keep the sufferer's body functioning.

AnyOldPrion · 12/11/2019 07:16

I don't identify as a woman. My behaviours and thought patterns and interests are more consistent with those more typical of men.

But this is societal bollocks. Lots of women have interests that society would love to shove into the man box.

There is no man box. Do and enjoy whatever you like. Your behaviours and thought patterns are a woman’s behaviours and thought patterns.

This is where we end up when we believe the lie that men should be one way and women another.

And I personally think part of the problem with this whole discussion is that somehow it has been pushed onto us that there is some kind of “trans personality” that exists as a real thing in some kind of vacuum.

There isn’t. There are various mental disorders around gender and one of the current treatments is medical intervention in an attempt to alleviate mental distress. Those who undergo this medical treatment may be described as trans.

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 07:18

Trans feeling is perfectly normal, perhaps that is why the analogy doesn't work for some people ?

Because anorexia is different in that it causes the person to harm themselves whereas until very recently trans people on the whole could not, and even now trans people need to go external to get the changes , it's not something you can do to yourself

I know there is a lot of talk of increased suicide rates but no actual evidence that it's a problem as widespread as transidentifucatiom is nowadays. I also worry that the slogan actually encourages children to think about suicide. What would I have done with that razor blade presented with that type of every day language?

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 07:23

The difference is that someone at 65lb is unlikely to sustain good physical health. Someone who transitions so their body matches their mind experiences significantly better physical AND mental health once they receive the treatment they want.

DocusDiplo · 12/11/2019 07:26

Urgh so annoyed I wasted 3 minutes reading that BS

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 07:31

Someone who transitions mentally is likely to be physically and mentally healthier

For people who take the medical route, the outcomes are less clear cut, we can not ignore the physical health risks of surgery and long term hormone use . Neither can we ignore the studies that show in some cases worse mental health after a medical transition than before. I believe some trans people have discussed this.

Anyone who makes a general claim that medical transition means happiness is very naive

BowermansNose · 12/11/2019 07:42

With anorexia, the sufferer can achieve the target condition without medical intervention. With trans, the sufferer cannot achieve the target condition without medical intervention.

That’s not really the standard. Suicide can be achieved without medical intervention, but we wouldn’t describe it as a healthy choice.

Either way, the target condition is inherently dangerous, and requires continued medical intervention to keep the sufferer's body functioning.

I don’t think it is necessarily true

NotBadConsidering · 12/11/2019 07:42

Someone who transitions so their body matches their mind experiences significantly better physical AND mental health once they receive the treatment they want.

This is patently untrue.

Themyscira · 12/11/2019 07:43

I'm very concerned about the increasing numbers of children that feel disassociated from their bodies, with a specific focus on their genitals. Ten + years ago, this would have triggered some very serious safeguarding investigations. These days the child is signposted to GIDS without another thought. Wtf.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 07:49

Not untrue at all. Lack if access to gender firming surgery causes lots of emotional turmoil and that leads to physical decline in health.

Trans people are still discriminated against in the health system, and their health is significantly worse than cis people as a result but someone who wants to transition and is prevented access has the worse health outcomes.

ChilledBee · 12/11/2019 07:50

@Themyscira

That's because we lived in total denial of children's awareness of their own sexuality. It wasnt that long ago we used to scream at children for touching themselves and call them dirty.

MIdgebabe · 12/11/2019 07:51

Any increased suicide rate has been orders of magnitude overplayed. Further, that's against a backdrop that encourages suicide attempts ..the very title of the thread refers to that advertising slogan. And against a correlation with autism , with its known increased suicide risk.

The overriding evidence is that we have not lost thousands of women in every generation to trans related suicide. Yet in this generation we have thousands being treated to avoid precisily this, and since 2014 ,we have a arising suicide rate in young girls.