'Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?'

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Fantastic thread copied over from Twitter. @gigilarue4, a US woman, posted it yesterday.
***
Imagine, if you will, your thirteen year old daughter coming to you, out of the blue with some news. Imagine your happy, great looking, healthy, smart, successful, socially active child coming to you and saying tearfully “Mom, I’m too fat. I’m not supposed to be 105 pounds. I’m supposed to be 65 pounds. I hate to look in the mirror and I hate my body this way”.

Suddenly, they start wearing baggy jeans, heavy sweatshirts and oversized clothes to make themselves appear smaller. They spend hours on the internet looking at pictures of 65 pound people who have successfully achieved their goal with excessive dieting and liposuction. They become obsessed with every bite of food they take, after a lifetime of loving French fries, pizza, ice cream, pasta, cooking- suddenly that passion for food has evaporated. All they think about is how happy they will be when they get to be 65 pounds.

You talk to the counselor at their school. She says, “Awww…talk to this person, she’s an expert”, and she hands you a business card. The person is a doctor at Children’s Hospital, and she has an Eating Disorder clinic that is world famous. You call and explain your situation to her social worker.

The social worker says that you kid can come in and be put on a liquid diet of 500 calories a day and will reach her goal weight of 65 pounds in a few months. They can then do liposuction on the areas that didn’t thin out they way they should have.

You pause, certain you misheard her and say, “Excuse me? She’s supposed to be 105 pounds. That’s a healthy weight”, & the social worker says, ”Well, you need to accept that you now have a 65 pound child. The suicide rate for kids with this issue is 40%. Do you want a 65 pound kid or a dead kid?”

You obviously want your kid alive so you ask about therapy. The social worker says “We don’t find mental health evaluations useful. These kids just know who they are and once they realize this about
themselves, parents need to step out of the way and let them take this journey. If we have to involve the law to get parents on the right side of this, we will. That’s a last resort, but it happens.I do have a therapist who is also 65 pounds, and they can talk to your kid about
how the process works”.

You say thank you and hang up. Something doesn’t feel right. You call a few other therapists and they either don’t work with kids or they have a very limited knowledge of this particular Eating Disorder. A few say they specialize in this issue and have had several patients that have eventually all gotten to 65 pounds. “Nobody in my practice has ever not gone down the road”, they say, “They just know what’s right for them”.

In the following weeks, your kid stops eating and develops depression, anxiety and spends too much time looking at emaciated people on Instagram. Every conversation is about food or weight-loss, every meal is excruciating. Any attempts to use logic like, “65 pounds is not a healthy weight and impossible to maintain that long term without serious health effects” is met with anger and accusations of invalidating her authentic self.

You research more and find that the consensus of all of the major medical organizations- Pediatric Endocrine Society, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medial Association-is that once your kid decides they are supposed to be 65 pounds, there’s nothing anyone can do. They just know, and you need to support them. Simply having the thought is enough to proceed with the liquid diet and liposuction.

Any attempt to reason with them or convince them to nourish themselves is considered child abuse conversion therapy and laws are enacted to prevent therapists who might be concerned about their mental well being from addressing it.

You come across several websites created by kids who did this exact thing- who are now older and their bodies are permanently destroyed from adverse effects of long term starvation.Their brains, organs and metabolic system is out of whack and it will never be the same. No matter how much they try to regulate it, they will never be able to get back their once healthy body. They wish they’d been given an alternative immediate affirmation of their misconception that they were overweight. They wish the doctors had told them no.

Now replace “65 pounds” with “trans”. That’s what this feels like.
***

I don't think it is remotely the experience of most women- it might be the experience of women who post on FWR but I've never personally come across the sort of loathing of one's body which is taken as normal on FWR.

There is a definite push to make women feel physical dissatisfaction. Hence Botox, breast implants, cosmetic surgery, even labioplasty, for heavens sake. None of which can be sold without a strong negative critique of one's own body.

FWR usually challenges this tho, through analysis, not endorse it.

Legally, an 18yo is considered an adult (though even then not entirely, eg I think that an 18yo cannot adopt a child)

You can adopt at age 21.

Medically, it is recognised that both brain and body do not reach physical maturity until early to mid 20s

That may well be the case but it really isn't a valid argument here. 18- 25 year olds are not children. For many, many, purposes, including marriage in Scotland, 16 year olds are not children.

Cardiovascular risk increase is a well documented side effect of oestrogen.

Also that in a woman, where that level of oestrogen is natural it appears to have a protective effect, declining after the menopause. Not so for a man taking cross sex hormones. Because men and women, whatever their gender identity, are biologically different.

Body dysmorphia is very complex. In a minority of cases where all other treatment has been tried, the individual is actually happier following surgery to correct their issue. This often involves the removal of a healthy limb.

In the vast majority of cases, the individual is no happier and the issues simply transfer to something else.

However, you'd never go round cutting off the limbs from everyone who asked because statistically you'll only help a few people, and harm statistically more.

This seems to me the case with trans people. There are a few who will benefit, but we seem to have adopted the view of treating everyone just so the minority who would be helped aren't missed. Obviously, as with other dysmorphias, it won't help the majority, and these will be left suffering serious harm.

FWR usually challenges this tho, through analysis, not endorse it

I wasn't referring to societal expectations. I was referring to the many, many posts I've seen on here over the years from posters about how much they loathe their female body and the assumption that this is a normal reaction. I keep a note of words of wisdom and words of wtf - can give you examples.

That may well be the case but it really isn't a valid argument here. 18- 25 year olds are not children. For many, many, purposes, including marriage in Scotland, 16 year olds are not children.

Puberty blockers may prevent your brain developing normally so capacity to consent to irreversible medical treatment and sterility is a poorly understood grey area. I don't think people really consider how serious a process it is to stop a child ever going through their natural puberty. It's really just a big experiment.

I watch alot of documentaries on trans people and their doctors ect. Mostly because documentaries are a easy was to understand without having to wade through research online! I have seen multiple times that doctors who talk about how people are now coming to them and wanting to change back or that there are record numbers of suicide by people realising changing gender didn't fix them, they have to change the voice of the doctor and blur out faces so that no one knows who they are! Can you imagine blurring the face of a doctor talking about any other issue?

I wasn't referring to societal expectations. I was referring to the many, many posts I've seen on here over the years from posters about how much they loathe their female body

Where does body dissatisfaction come from, if not societal expectations?

Which is why the ideal changes over time and geography. Hour glass, heroin chic, small breasts, pointed breasts, big breasts, etc. For decades 'does my bum look big in this' was a common refrain comedic even. Now Kardashianesque bottom inserts are encouraged.

All society imposted. I mean labioplasty???

I suspect that body hatred can have internal as well as external causes. I suspect that the external dominates. I suspect that in many cases an internal hatred stems from rapid changes, because whenever something changes ( job, uniform) people feel bad. I suspect that like nature nurture debate that will be pretty hard to get to the bottom of. I suspect that an inability of self regulate the harmful feelings may have an internal component. Like depression.

These are all internal to the mind problems. Wouldn't it be best to fix the mind if it's broken in that way.

I'm sure there's that too midge. Puberty, with all it's adult implications, whilst still feeling nothing like an adult, is confusing and a pain.

Many 12 or 13 year olds with breasts which draw attention, would absolutely, wish those breasts elsewhere.

There is a comment somewhere below about how FWR seems to have an exceptional number lot of women who have had body /gender hatred problems

Isn't it funny that women who have experienced the greater levels of gender distress are also the ones that tend to reject patriarchy ? I would be as bold as to suggest that is a causal relationship.

Can I please correct the claim that children are not having surgery?

It may be true of the UK but certainly isn't in the US where girls as young as 13 have had their perfectly healthy breasts removed and 15 year olds can sign up for surgery without parental consent in the state of Oregon.

Jazz Jennings had genital surgery at 17 and lest we forget Jackie Green was just 16 when castrated in Thailand.

16th birthday, even.

Yep, though in fairness to the Thais they no longer perform genital mutilation surgery on such young people. In fact I think I read recently that they've upped the minimum age to 21. No doubt someone will know if that's correct or not.

What? That sounds exactly like the experience of most women, especially as we go through adolescence and come to terms with how the world treats us

I don't think it is remotely the experience of most women- it might be the experience of women who post on FWR but I've never personally come across the sort of loathing of one's body which is taken as normal on FWR.

The PP specifically stated adolescence. Research by the Girl Guides backs this up:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/research-and-campaigns/girls-attitudes-survey-2018.pdf

See section on Appearance pressures.

41% of 17-21 year old girls are "not happy" with the way they look. Lucky you if you and all the women you know were in the 59%.

Also, note that 17-21 was the age that girls were MOST unhappy with their bodies, at an age where they would (or v. shortly) have surgery as an available option.

There is no comparison. 1 in 4 people with anorexia die from the disorder. Before this, they live a miserable life. Enforced treatment happens when there is a clear risk to life, as a MH nurse I have met people with BMIs in single figures.

For many people living in their perceived gender eases their distress without putting them at risk of death.

Enforced treatment happens when there is a clear risk to life,

• Trans kids: high risk of suicide (so we are told)
• the enforced treatment is psychological therapy and avoidance of hormones that result in permanent physical changes. It’s not the treatment they want - just like anorexics don’t want nasogastric feeding - but it’s the best treatment for them.

Children with distress about their sex: “if I don’t get the treatment I want I’ll kill myself”
Doctors in gender clinics “Ok sure, that seems a reasonable request”

Children with anorexia nervosa: “I want to be allowed to starve myself even if it risks death”
Doctors in Eating Disorder Units: “Yeah no, sorry, not having that”.

If doctors didn’t protect children with anorexia nervosa from themselves it would be a disaster but at Gender clinics that doesn’t seem to happen.

the enforced treatment is psychological therapy and avoidance of hormones that result in permanent physical changes. It’s not the treatment they want - just like anorexics don’t want nasogastric feeding - but it’s the best treatment for them.

How is this treatment enforced? People with anorexia can be detained under the MHA for treatment because anorexia is defined as a mental disorder within the act. GD isn't.

Self-starvation can be lethal. Taking hormones and surgery isn't.

That OP is absolutely chilling

It’s enforced in the sense that you say to children they have to have therapy. If they are suicidal and can’t be kept safe by those around them then they can also be sectioned for severe depression with suicidal ideation.

Taking hormones leads to infertility, sexual dysfunction (inability to orgasm) significant increased cardiovascular disease risk (stroke etc) and increased risk of certain cancers.

Surgery results in permanency of the problems started by hormones and recurrent wound infections, necrosis, and turns a patient into lifelong medical patients.

These two options may be acceptable if there was any evidence they lead to positive long term mental health outcomes in children. But there isn’t.

So why should they be done again?

Some people will have life long eating disorders.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21364939/?i=2&from=sex%20reassignment%20surgery/mortality

RESULTS: The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8-4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8-62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9-8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0-3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

CONCLUSIONS: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group

Did you seriously just suggest surgery can't be lethal?

You are aware that at least one XX trans person has died as a direct result of phaloplasty surgery?

Are you not aware all surgery comes with a risk of infection and reaction to anaesthetic? That it is never 100% safe?

I can see I need to tell my own story again.

I had a routine biopsy. I picked up an infection during surgery. My leg swelled to twice its normal size. The infection spread down to almost my knee and up to my navel. The wound site was black, rotten, blistered. I was rushed back to hospital, drip fed bucket loads of antibiotics. Had the rotten bit cut away leaving a wound large enough to fit my fist in which took four months to heal. It took three years to rebuild my quadracep muscle.

I was lucky I didn't die nor lost my leg. This was the most minor of surgery. The completely unnecessary surgeries performed on 'trans' people, some as young as 13, are far more major and far more risky.

Surgery can't be lethal my arse.

I did not say surgery cannot be lethal. Any surgery comes with risks, just as (to a lesser extent) any medicine does. But we aren't talking 1 in 4 are we?

Oh so that's ok? Collateral damage of children and young people is perfectly fine if the percentage is small enough? How many children shall we sacrifice this year?