Do women have the right to say they feel uncomfortable over a name?

[SarahNade]

I hope this is as safe place to ask this. I am on a discussion on another thread, and it seems many think that a woman has no right to ask not to be addressed by a colloquial term, and if she does ask, she is the one being unreasonable for daring to stick her neck out, she is the one overreacting, for merely asking. Yet the male who went politely asked, gets offended that a woman dares utter her discomfort, and gets abusive with her. So why is it the woman who is 'overreacting' by merely asking not to be called something, but the man is not seen as overreacting by taking offence to her request and getting indignant?

Do women have the right to ask politely not be called something, without being told they are 'overreacting'? Or should women accept being called a term they don't like, shut up and put up with it in case she gets the male in trouble?

But my point is that if men thought of 'pet' as a status signaler then they wouldn't let women address them with it, but clearly they do.

True. In the south that is clearly not the case where terms of familiarity are most definitely gendered. Like you said actually.

I don’t think men are necessarily being sexist when they say it unequally. It’s just a custom passed on by culture. Whether that original culture was sexist (and if that means we should stop using it) is another question.

Personally there is something inclusive about “mate” but something pedastally and othering words for women: Ladies, love, gorgeous,etc. Giving us compliments that we really don’t need.

But that has a lot to do with the nature of the fratriarchy, men being the main players at the table whilst women exist on the decorative periphery. Kind of like any action movie really.

Personally I think theirs a big difference between love and terms such as babe and gorgeous etc.and it's muddying the waters somewhat to bring them in here.

Had the driver been calling the op babe or gorgeous my feelings would be very different but love is used in many situations and by lots of people. Nurses call patients love, I don't recall ever hearing a nurse call someone gorgeous as a form of address.

If other countries in the western world at least, stop saying a term whether it be love or n, then why can't the UK adapt and change?

Why do you wish to render the rich diversity of the UK's languages and dialects obsolete?

True. In the south that is clearly not the case where terms of familiarity are most definitely gendered. Like you said actually.

Well in the more middle class parts of the south you don't use terms of familiarity with strangers. You address people formally until you get to know them closely.

That's why I think some people follow the chain of reasoning that you wouldn't normally address a stranger as love, so the driver must be saying it in order to belittle the customer. Which may be true or may not, depending on the broader social context.

“ Nurses call patients love,“

Do male nurses call male patients love?

Well in the more middle class parts of the south you don't use terms of familiarity with strangers. You address people formally until you get to know them closely.

Yes that’s a good point. And interpret other people’s actions depending on what you would mean if you made them.

Which means Jesus got that whole “do unto others” thing wrong.

The question remains though: who should adapt to whose way of acting?

Should the woman just put up and shut up because the man was just being friendly?

Or should the man acquiesce because he doesn’t want to piss the woman off?

Do male nurses call male patients love?

It's pointless asking that as it will just become more mental gymnastics,whatabouttery,women do it too round about and none of them will actually admit that men don't call other men love,pet,duck as much as or as regularly as they call women that. Especially strangers.

Do male nurses call male patients love?

No because gay.

Women are less afraid to appear gay. Why is that?

Why were Chandler and Joey so loathe to appear gay even though theirs was for many the deepest love story of all?

none of them will actually admit that men don't call other men love,pet,duck as much as or as regularly as they call women that. Especially strangers.

You keep saying this but it is patently untrue. I've not heard men calling each other love but a few posters have said it's common parlance in some areas. I have absolutely heard men call each other duck.

Can you explain why it is ok for women to call other women love when you clearly consider it wrong for men to call women love? What is the difference?

For me, it's not about sex it is about social standing. So it rankles with me when someone of a higher social standing addresses me in a familiar way be that pet, love or.by my first name when I haven't invited it. That's because I am not on an equal standing and cannot address them in a similar manner. So, at work I don't like a customer calling me love or even worse my name because I am not in a position to do like wise. I don't like a Dr or nurse using my first name, without invitation, because I can't do the same.

If I am in an equal relationship with the.person then I have no problem with it. So, for me, sex had nothing to do with it. I'll be equally offended at being called "love" regardless of whether it's a man or woman doing it.

*The question remains though: who should adapt to whose way of acting?

Should the woman just put up and shut up because the man was just being friendly?

Or should the man acquiesce because he doesn’t want to piss the woman off?*

The problem is that these things are socially determined to a large extent. It's completely impractical for everyone to be constantly asking each person what their preferred term of address is.

Indeed, I suspect many of the people here taking the position, "women have the right to choose their terms of address" are not quite so hot on the position, "trans people have the right to choose their pronouns".

I agree with posters that it's about intent. Someone of either gender calling the other "love" is (I would say) unlikely to be using it as a loaded term.

Is it worth addressing it in an informal situation where you aren't going to encounter them again often? I would say no. It seems needless to men to point it out to someone you don't know who has said it with no malice, but obviously it's the recipient's prerogative.

Likewise many men (especially older gentlemen) will hold a door open for a woman. I would think it needless to read into this that they think a woman is incapable and beneath them. If a man or a woman held the door open for me I would see it as a nice courtesy and not something that needs to be read into deeper than that.

I think as an adult it's usually clear if someone is using a term with loaded meaning. How many people who use "love" genuinely believe that the recipient is less than / inferior during everyday speech? In my opinion very few.

In a work setting for example if someone uses a term I'm not comfortable I would absolutely in telling them I don't like it. Because I will encounter them regularly so it makes sense to take the time to ask, explain and reinforce if it happens again.

However, addressing it with someone in passing who isn't using it in a derogatory way seems petty. My lovely grandad would have been really upset if he said something like "sorry love I think you dropped your purse" and they said don't call me love, its demeaning and inappropriate. He would have felt like shit when he meant no offence and wasn't making any unkind inferences in using "love".

One issue that needs considering is that it is not a very large leap from "terms of familiarity must be gender neutral otherwise sexism" to "toilets must be gender neutral otherwise sexism".

I'm not saying that these two positions are logically indistinguishable (indeed I'm sure there are many FWR regulars who could make a completely reasonable case for the former and against the latter), but rather that it might not be a good idea to assume that all gender differences are primae facie sexist.

If II could go back in time and tell my 17 year old self that in 2019 women would, in all seriousness, be suggesting that a man calling a woman “love” was doing it to show equality, or that a woman asking a man not to call her “love” was doing it because she was a snob, I think 17 year old me would think I’d gone mad.

If a man or a woman held the door open for me I would see it as a nice courtesy and not something that needs to be read into deeper than that.

Indeed but try to hold the door open for men as a matter of policy and the reaction you get is quite telling.

Indeed but try to hold the door open for men as a matter of policy and the reaction you get is quite telling.

I hold the door open for everyone, men and women. I have never received anything other than a "thank you".

Honestly people spout absolute codswallop on here and just make themselves look ridiculous. Do you honestly think that none of us women have ever held a door open for a man before? You say this like you are making some kind of revelation.

Indeed but try to hold the door open for men as a matter of policy and the reaction you get is quite telling.

I am a woman and hold the door open if anyone else is nearish, man or woman, and have only ever been given a thank you or cheers which is perfectly polite IMO.

It's impossible to know if a man does the same as me (for men and women) or only does so for women. So I don't assume that it is a sexist misogynist action.

There are so many sexist misogynistic actions occurring every day that I would rather prioritise tackling those that are definite and a priority.

For example, getting wolf whistled by strangers is something that is inherently sexist and those who do it absolutely know that most women don't think it's a compliment. It's also objectifying women.

However, that kind of example is a totally different ballgame to saying "love" in a friendly conversation or holding a door for someone out of course.

I hold the door open for everyone, men and women. I have never received anything other than a "thank you"

Agree with you on that, same here.

Honestly people spout absolute codswallop on here and just make themselves look ridiculous. Do you honestly think that none of us women have ever held a door open for a man before?

Calm down, there's no need to be rude. I wasn't criticising you personally. I'm just speaking from personal experience. Glad to see it's changed.

Also, you must have heard some men come out with the line "women want equality but they still want men to hold doors open for them". I've spoken to quite a few men who see it this way so it's not entirely a free gift.

I literally just said that I don't think it's misogynistic so please don't put words in my mouth. It's just cultural. People do it because they are used to it.

I really don't believe that outside of Mumsnet women hold doors open for men as much as the other way round and when I last tried it was quite embarrassing waiting whilst we said "no you first" back and forth.

I'll give it another go though in the terms of research.

I really don't believe that outside of Mumsnet women hold doors open for men as much as the other way round and when I last tried it was quite embarrassing waiting whilst we said "no you first" back and forth.

Maybe you should get out a bit more? And the "no you first" happens a lot - going into queues, getting on buses, going through doors between good mannered people, I've found. Equal spread between men and women.

I really don't believe that outside of Mumsnet women hold doors open for men as much as the other way round and when I last tried it was quite embarrassing waiting whilst we said "no you first" back and forth.

Outside of Mumsnet my experience is that people always hold doors for other people regardless of sex and the embarrassing back and forth occurs occasionally when the incoming and outgoing party happen to reach the door at the same time. Otherwise it's always first person holds door for second person holds door for third person.

I have never heard door holding being described as sexist or discussed at all in real life except in the context of one particular teacher at my high school who always let it shut in pupils faces and was roundly disliked by staff and students alike for his rudeness.

Actually I tell a lie. I do see people ushering those entering buildings in ahead of them leaving even when they got to the door first if the weather is particularly bad.

The sensible thing, when both of you arrive at the same time, is for the person the door swings towards to hold it open (otherwise it becomes a right faff with one person holding their arm outstretched while the other ducks under their armpit in the manner of a particularly inept couple at a ceilidh). Doesn't matter who is which sex, it's all about the geometry of the door!

Have we had “my husband held the door open for a feminist and she shouted at him” yet?

Have we had “my husband held the door open for a feminist and she shouted at him” yet?

Nope, we've had the very opposite.

Indeed but try to hold the door open for men as a matter of policy and the reaction you get is quite telling.

Agree the door thing is just common sense, for either men or women. It's polite. I especially do the weird half arse gallop to get to the door someone has held for me.

For those do find it sexist man opens the door for them, can you explain why? This isn't me being snarky I just genuinely don't get it. If they slapped my arse it would become an issue of course. A very vocal issue.

But door opening is in general something that think or polite and do it automatically by default. It's certainly not a hill to die on.

It's a kind gesture for the vast majority for most people.