Do women have the right to say they feel uncomfortable over a name?

[SarahNade]

I hope this is as safe place to ask this. I am on a discussion on another thread, and it seems many think that a woman has no right to ask not to be addressed by a colloquial term, and if she does ask, she is the one being unreasonable for daring to stick her neck out, she is the one overreacting, for merely asking. Yet the male who went politely asked, gets offended that a woman dares utter her discomfort, and gets abusive with her. So why is it the woman who is 'overreacting' by merely asking not to be called something, but the man is not seen as overreacting by taking offence to her request and getting indignant?

Do women have the right to ask politely not be called something, without being told they are 'overreacting'? Or should women accept being called a term they don't like, shut up and put up with it in case she gets the male in trouble?

I agree. The OP didn’t have power over the delivery driver, he was certainly exerting male power over her though. Like she said he didn’t call her husband love. He sigled her out because of her sex.

Au contraire, @dreichdrizzle. It was no argument but an insulting offer to educate me in intersectionality which I do not need.

Singled

Trouble is Dreich you're not seeing any subtlety (plus bizarrely you've decided women who disagree with you are wrong, just like the misogynists)... Women feel these experiences differently. It's about the intent and use of those words. They're not blanket 'bad'. I'd feel intimidated by a drunk man shouting 'all right love' across the street but not a bus driver saying 'thanks love' when I pay. There isn't one easy black and white way of defining this. Just like some women marry, some don't, some wear high heels, some don't, some don't mind or even like bring called 'pet' by a non-threatening male in a helping situation. Your tone is rather patronising in suggesting that those in disagreement are blind victims of the status quo. You aren't hearing the experience of other feminists who see this differently.

The OP didn’t have power over the delivery driver, he was certainly exerting male power over her though.

Of course she does. She has economic power over him - she could make a complaint to his employer which could result in his dismissal. Even an unfounded complaint is going to damage his reputation bat work simply because in most jobs like that the employer will side with the customer. There is no evidence of what happened and so nothing that can be done to prove his innocence. A complaint will sit on his file. So in this case the customer has power over the delivery driver.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras lass comes into it here because the original op appeared to be looking down her nose at the delivery driver. She obviously thought that he should treat her with more deference. Absolute nonsense, it fact it that is your assumptions made out of your prejudice to ascribe motives to the OP of that thread. Nowhere did she even hint at her looking down at him for being a delivery driver. Nowhere. You invented that, and it says a lot that you would think that way. For all you know, she or her husband may have been delivery drivers themselves at one stage. Maybe a taxi driver or a bus driver, or a road worker. You have no idea who they are, so you have no right inventing a narrative and then arguing as if it were true.

He was trying to help her sort out the missing item so I can't see why she then needed to make a "thing" out of him using love.
He was doing his job. That's it, basically. So I don't see why that should make him immune from being asked not to refer to someone as something they don't like.

I work in a customer facing role and get called any number of things - love, darling, pet, my first name
I have also worked in customer facing roles, one being a (inbound) call centre operator. Believe me, when men are being angry and patronising because they can't get their way, they use love in a passive aggressive and patronising manner.

but what's the point in saying anything?
If everyone thought like that, rape in marriage would not be outlawed. Women would have never got the vote. Women would not be able to drink in a public bar. Women would not be able to 'say anything' if groped or raped. That is the problem. Saying what's the point in saying anything is THE crux of the actual problem.

Do you think it's ok for a woman to call another woman love? What's the motivation behind that?
I've already said that the main point is men using the term against women. Which was the case with the thread in question. Women can also use the term in a patronising and passive-aggressive manner, however it is the sexism that causes men to do it and get away with it. This is about a male using the term to a woman, even after she asked him to stop.

Coldwatershock

Some.of us have been arguing exactly what you've just said and been told that intent doesn't matter. That whenever the term "love" is used by a man it is sexist, so many posters on here are making it a black and white issue.

Imo we don't know the intent and so can't say that it was sexist. The driver may well call everyone love or call all women love and all men mate. Would that still make him sexist? Why do women call other women love? What is the intent if higher status women call lower status women? What is the intent if a higher status woman calls a lower status woman "love" but then gets offended if the lower status woman calls her "love" back?

Is it sexist for a woman to call another woman love or is it classist? If it can be classist for a woman to do it, why can't it be classist rather than sexist of a man does it?

The OP didn’t have power over the delivery driver,
As a customer and of a higher class she had the power to take his job, denying him the means to feed, clothes and house himself and any dependent family.

he was certainly exerting male power over her though.
How so? If he had refused to be helpful and look for a chicken among other orders, that might be true. But he was not.

Like she said he didn’t call her husband love. He sigled her out because of her sex.
Well, she was outside by the delivery van speaking with the driver while her husband was inside putting away groceries. The conversation was between only her and the driver, the husband did not join them until later, after “love” had been used and a disagreement arose.

@PlanDeRaccordement The OP from that thread was from Canada. I am from Australia. Cultures differ, yes, but basic human etiquette doesn't differ that much in the western world at least. If something is sexist, it is sexist, regardless of the country. Simply because the UK is still behind the times in this area does not mean it isn't sexist. I don't think basic human standards differ that much. Especially if one asks someone to stop calling you something, and they continue, then that would be offensive no matter which country.

Calling anybody something unnecessary when they have asked you not to is rude. Doesn't matter what class , who has the greater privilege. That's a red herring. Being under priveldged or just stressed and tired does not give you an excuse to be rude

The person who refuses to say " oh? ok" is being anything from a prat to a bully. Class independent

Can we not bring rape into this @SarahNade? Your bringing in child abuse and rape on the last thread was not decent and neither is bringing in adult rape. It is disrespectful to survivors of these violent crimes.

Please may I ask that you use something more similar to the situation like reporting a catcall or wolf whistle?

PlanDeRaccordement

The OP didn’t have power over the delivery driver,As a customer and of a higher class she had the power to take his job, denying him the means to feed, clothes and house himself and any dependent family

More fiction. You have no idea whatsoever which class the OP was. You have invented this little bubble where cheery working class people are all happily going around calling complete strangers "love" as a term of endearment and anyone who doesn't do this or doesn't like it is automatically guilty of "classism"

Nowhere did she even hint at her looking down at him for being a delivery driver. Nowhere. You invented that, and it says a lot that you would think that way

Spot on.

Funnily enough this has just reminded me that I once, when I was a teenager, (very politely) asked my very highly paid middle aged male boss not to call me darling. He asked me why not and I said I just didn't like it. He then spent the next few weeks ranting about me to anyone who would listen and forced me out of my job. Yeah, men get very angry when you challenge them. This dickhead did the same to the OP of the original thread.

Exactly, Driechdrizzle. That is the point many are not (I think in some cases deliberately) getting.

Put aside whether one finds the term sexist or not, at least for a moment. The OP of that thread asked him to please stop. He continued. And people are saying she is unreasonable for getting upset when all she did was ask him not to call her love. That is all she did! He got defensive and doubled down, and somehow, it is still her fault for not just 'shutting up'. This is as much about basic manners and respecting women's boundaries as it is about sexism.

basic human etiquette doesn't differ that much in the western world at least. If something is sexist, it is sexist, regardless of the country. Simply because the UK is still behind the times in this area

Etiquette differs greatly by country in “the western world” even just here on the European mainland we have many many differences and they are all with the times. What is sexist or not sexist also different.

No one is behind the times. To say the U.K. is “behind the times” simply for being different from your view of etiquette is not very tolerant of you. It’s narrow minded to think that the etiquette you know and are comfortable with is a “human” etiquette as in universal among all humans. Humans have more diversity than that even within the western cultures.

I do understand intersectionality. But if you have a desire to lecture the thread, feel free to do so. I sadly, will not be reading it unless it is en francais

Evidemment tu comprends pas parce que ton exemple est complètement faux. Bien sûr, Megan Markle a beaucoup plus de pouvoir qu’un cammioneur mais c’est un équivalence faux parce l’idée de l’intersectionnalité est de comparer deux personnes qui sont du même statut autrement.

Il faudrait alors comparer Megan Markle (avant qu’elle s’est mariée evidemment) avec un acteur du même age. La probabilité est qu’il gagnerait plus qu’elle, qu’il aurait plus nombreux de rôles disponsible, et qu’il serait pas aussi obligé de se déshabiller.

ECA

I think being nice, kind, pleasant and gentle is what basically makes for a pleasant society.

If so, then you would surely be on the side of the OP of that thread then, @Hearhoovesthinkzebras

@Quitedrab Your boss had a position of power over you, whereas with the delivery guy, it was the reverse.

Untrue, she had to 'position of power' over him. She was a customer, that's all. His boss is the one who had position of power.

It's about the intent and use of those words. They're not blanket 'bad'.

Unless you're a woman then everyone assumes your intent was bad and everything you do from asking not to be called something to having your family help with the shopping is aggressive,abusive,confrontational,classist,snobby,bitchy etc.

A lot of you are more than happy to give the benefit of doubt to the "hope he's ok,poor man" while assuming the worst about the woman.

Funny that.

SarahNade

Sorry, if you're from Australia then you really cannot comment on how different dialects and different regions within the UK operate.

I find it quite offensive for you to state that the UK is behind the times simply because in some areas of the country certain colloquialisms are used.

In Leicester it is commonplace for the greeting "me duck" to be used for both men and women by men and women. In other areas, with the same intent, the terms love and mate can be used. The intent is exactly the same - a friendly greeting.

@coatlessinspokane - thank you!

As a customer and of a higher class she had the power to take his job, denying him the means to feed, clothes and house himself and any dependent family

One time the bell rang while I was in the bath. Jumped out,wrapped a towel around me and answered the door. The man kept smirking,held the package in such a way that I had to use two hands to take it and made one joke about me being wet and one about dropping the towel(when I had to use both hands).

I've never felt more powerful in my life.

SarahNade

As someone who is apparently so au fair with etiquette may I politely ask you not to @ me? If you are familiar with this board you will know that it is not the correct etiquette to @ people who are present on the thread.

Regional pockets populated entirely by mumsnetters notwithstanding, it is not usual for men in the U.K. to address each other as love, m’dear, pet, duck, honey, sweetheart or darling. It is routine for men to use these to women they don’t know, barely know or work with. Why do people think this might be?

BertrandRussell Pas de problème amie! J’ai ton dos parce que souvent tu exprimes ce que je suis en train de penser!

What do you think exercising power means Plan?