Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

There is no secret, amazing study.

Nope. The research is not rigourous, nor up to date enough, to suggest that we should be starting our minor children on medical treatment for gender dysphoria.

My suggestion, to lurkers, mum to mum, is that you should take the feelings seriously - they are real, even if the thought driving the feelings isnt.

You should find your child reputable psychological assistance to have co-morbid issues treated.

You should encourage and support gender non-conformity and possible same-sex or bisexual orientations in your child.

You should not feed the dysphoria, either with affirmation or with negativity, and you should encourage your child to focus on hobbies and experiences that have nothing to do with gender.

Hold your line, which is 'safety' and 'keeping options open till adulthood'. Normalise the struggle many of us have with aspects of gender and our physical, sexed selves.

Seek out DBT if your child is suicidal.

These are all, btw, suggestions that have come from psychologists, psychiatrists and social workers with long experience in adolescent mental health.

That's one interpretation Kittens, mine was less charitable and involved AGP.

JanesKettle excellent, sound suggestions. I completely concur.

Is the something aligning in the stars tonight or some other woo weirdness? Some truly brilliant posts on FWR right now. (No, Frack, didnae mean you)

That's a brilliant post, Janes.

feed the dis,orphia thanks..I do think that's what is often happening

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

I know this comment on first read makes everyone want to let their eyes roll into the back of their heads, but actually it's utterly chilling. And manipulative. And deceitful.

The inference here is that we are all perverted for thinking about a teenager's ability (or lack thereof) to orgasm. Implying that we have an unnatural interest in this teenager's sex life. But that's just a smoke screen designed to silence and discredit us, so that you can get on with the business of advocating for children to be given unsafe drugs, have genital surgery, be rendered infertile and anorgasmic, irreversibly. For the rest of their lives. You, as an adult, advocate for all of this to be done to children and yet you have the absolute gall to imply that any of us have inappropriate intentions?

The worst of it is, it hasn't made us shut up.

Slow things down, was another piece of invaluable advice I received from a social worker.

So long as your child has support for co-morbid issues, there is no need to rush on the gender issues.

We know, via developmental psychology, that identity is in flux during adolescence - it makes sense to make space during the teen years for identity to shift and change over time.

Don't foreclose on your teen's identity by rushing to cement one particular identity.

Not only will I never shut up about this topic, it's the proponents of transing children who got me speaking in the first place.

When my daughter was first diagnosed, I went to a parent support group - and no-one there could answer any of my reasonable questions. In fact, asking questions was frowned upon. The information provided to explain why our children were trans and needed medical treatment asap was about a 6th grade reading level. No citations, no directions to further info.

Now, I know groups where you should shut up and take what you're given are unhealthy. So I left that group and did my own reading, and answered my own questions.

My conclusions ? This is an era of homophobic, ableist and sexist experimentation on childen and teens. Something Frack's posts haven't exactly challenged.

That comment is chilling in how well thought out the strategies for shutting down women's concerns are. Worried about Jazz? You'll be accused of wanting to harm Jazz.

Anyone new to this should probably have a think about what kind of people would want to make it impossible for a group of mostly middle aged women to express concern for the wellbeing of teenagers. And related to that, consider which group of people are in general most concerned with protecting teenagers from harm. If that group are no longer able to intervene when a teenager is at risk then who does that benefit?

It's exactly the same tactic they use when we say we don't want men to be able to pay to rape women in prostitution. They claim we exclude or even hate women in prostitution. It's a lie and a reversal.

I'm sure I recall that during the Jazz episode when the procedure was done, the surgeon said something along the lines of how generally after surgery something akin to a female orgasm can be attained.

The surgeon being Marci Bowers - a trans woman.

Yes, but in a rare burst of optimism, can I point out that all this blatant cribbing and reversal is, most obviously, an admission that we have absolutely made the case.

If all you can do in response to feminist arguments is DARVO them, you've basically held your hands up in defeat on the merits of your own positions.

It's like the T*RF insult - the only reason that is a thing is because they bloody know full well that Feminist arguments are the ones which expose their regressive misogyny and homophobia, so they had to work in the term 'radical feminist' as a pejorative to try and shut down the awkward women who know what reality is and ask questions. They would have just stick with bigot, nazi and transphobe otherwise.

That term makes for extra amusement when aimed at, say, Glinner. If they start calling Piers Morgan a T*RF they may peak trans the entire nation!

Great posts Janes thank you for your contributions. Glad to hear your child is doing better.

@WhatsInAName19
You're wrong. I'm not accusing anyone of having inappropriate intentions. I just find it hard to read about due to my own history of trauma. I think a lot of other people on here are responding from a place of trauma, too. That we disagree about trans people is a slightly different issue.

I find this really hard to understand Frack.

If you find discussing the trauma inflicted upon Jazz too close to your own trauma, why do you advocate for a medical pathway that inflicts that trauma?

If you don’t want to discuss the trauma inflicted on children by the medical pathway of affirmative care, why do you post repeatedly on the Trans Kids thread and then start your own thread about the medical pathway, the end result of which is the trauma inflicted on Jazz that you find triggering? It’s inevitable the discussion will end up at that point because that’s the end result of the medical pathway.

NotBad, that’s roughly what I wanted to ask but you’ve put it far better.

*Slow things down
*
I'm not in your position Janes but it makes perfect sense. Someone sensible said to me it's like driving and leaving space between you and the car in front to give yourself time to react. Kids need time to adjust to most changing situations I will never understand why someone would rush them on any issue frankly.

Your posts are really insightful, thank you for sharing.

I'm travelling at the moment so can't properly access posted links etc.i will do when back home.

Thanks to all the posters contributing. Frack, I'm sorry to hear of your trauma and wish you well. I'm also sorry for parents of children who've gone through or are going through this. It can't be easy.

I think we all want the best for our kids. My heart breaks a bit that unnecessary medication or treatment has apparently become seen as a valid option for a child struggling with ideas about 'gender'.

What @NotBadConsidering said 👆🏼

I'm sorry that you're dealing with past trauma, Frack. As you acknowledge, lots of us are. But I'm afraid that it is completely wrong to advocate for something where the result is extremely serious, life-changing and permanent for the children involved and then simply refuse to discuss those side effects because it's "triggering" to you. If you are unable to discuss the issue of the irreversible damage that is caused to children going down this pathway, then I don't think you have any business pushing for it. We should be turning over every single last stone and asking every possible question before we medicalise these kids.

IMO it is extremely unethical to be pushing one-sided information and then blocking relevant questions about the impact of this agenda on children. Personally I find it extremely triggering to have to defend the rights of children to not be medicalised, misled, given genital surgery, made infertile etc but these are key elements of the discussion and cannot be ignored if I am to involve myself in this important debate.

Jazz's story is told as a success story. I could understand people's unwillingness to discuss Jazz if it wasn't.

These are the accepted outcomes of the treatment plan that OP is not only advocating, but having a go at us for even questioning.

Again - a success story.

Jazz's story is told as a success story

Because Jazz is only 19. It's a recurring theme of shortsightedness: studies that only look at outcomes after 6 months etc. Only now are they looking at long term outcomes with protocols being formulated, after they set kids off down this pathway. As poor Alfie on that YouTube video says they’ve been the guinea pigs.

a lot of other people on here are responding from a place of trauma, too.

I feel this implies that their view cannot be trusted as it isn't impartial? I don't see myself as "responding from a place of trauma" on trans issues, I see myself as speaking from experience.

Those with trauma/therapy histories will understand that being triggered doesn't manifest in the most rational of ways. It's not the story/experience of Jazz which i find difficult to handle but the visceral language some on here have used about her case.

I think trauma informed approches to all this are very interesting l. In particular I am interested in the trauma left in people who have experienced minority stress. There has been a lot of research on the link between racism and heart disease for example.

So I am also interested in the longterm impacts on people's physical and mental wellbeing of other systemic and societal prejudice, like transphobia, homophobia, classism, sexism, Islamophobia etc