Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

FrackOff
People have been engaging here all day about a range of items from your references. You called the thread Fracks references and now you don't want to people to discuss them. And now your trying to what? Say we are all, what's the term, "genital fetishists". Good try but we see you.

Brilliant post Nonny

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

Nobody is discussing any such thing. Jazz Jenning's cannot orgasm. We know this because Jazz Jenning's parents and doctors saw fit to encourage Jazz to discuss the matter on TV for the world to see. This was indeed deeply unethical. Not only because discussing a child's intimate medical procedures for public entertainment is unethical but because Jazz clearly does not understand that such conversations are not generally considered appropriate. This is partly due to Jazz being brought up in the media glare but quite likely also related to a disruption of normal brain development rendering Jazz unable to understand social niceties on a level that would normally be expected from a 17/18/19 year old.

Also Jazz even if the medical experiment had gone well Jazz would never experience the 'orgasms of a teenage girl'. Jazz is the wrong sex to ever experience female orgasms and should have had this explained clearly to Jazz all along.

the vast body of international data, including longterm retrospective data, points firmly towards affirmative care as the approach with the best ourcomes for children's mental health.

This statement is made CONSTANTLY but never supported with peer reviewed research on dysphoric kids. Somehow we are supposed to just believe it and therefore such studies are not only unnecessary but actually UNETHICAL because we’ve already decided that “affirmation only” is better for literally everyone.

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

This puritanical streak tends to come out when a really important point has been made. See also "eeeuuw, you're all obsessed with genitals"

I rarely post, but almost always read and just want to applaud the fabulous posters on FWR for this marvellous, well argued discussion.

Many thanks, OP, for enabling a wonderful example of the best of FWR. I am sure this hasn’t turned out as you intended!

Gurl

This is a remarkable and helpful thread. Thanks all! Especially Frack

Can anyone see how long the follow up is on the Lynch et al paper (number 3 above)?

Having said that, amusing though it is (specially the vanity posting), given that Frack explicitly said on another thread that they were worried about being identified, it might be as well to get the last few posts speculating about her identity deleted at poster's request. I'll do that with mine.

OK, I had my posts being specific deleted.

I do think I was mistaken that Frack is a Mermaids volunteer. This looks a lot like a university reading list that we're being set as students to work through and then report back to Frack our opinions so she can mark us on whether we've toed the party line. I can't think of any other type of person who sets reading lists and then demands others uncover the arguments for both sides, rather than engaging properly in the discussion themselves.

Western academia is white supremacist and male supremacist Sadly most people succeeding in it currently are those who are prepared to uphold those values and indoctrinate their students into them.

No, it's just people's insistence on talking about a teenage girl's orgasm

Jazz Jennings is a male born individual who has had their testicles removed, and because their children's penis is too small, has had a neo vagina fashioned from the lining of their stomach.

A 'teenage girls orgasm', is impossible for jazz. Firstly because they are not the right sex, and secondly because they have no genitalia to make it happen.

This is what you advocate for. When you advocate for puberty blockers, this is the direct result.

Jazz and their family are making millions of dollars by talking about this in great detail from one end of the media to the other.

You going all coy about the orgasm of a teenage girl is, under those circumstances, both deceitful and manipulative.

And, (and I don't know why you don't see this) unutterably transparent.

Jazz will never enjoy an effective adult sex life, has been deprived forever of the intimacy it provides, and has been commercialised on the back of it. Something you have gone to great pains to support.

Yes, gross.

I'm sure I recall that during the Jazz episode when the procedure was done, the surgeon said something along the lines of how generally after surgery something akin to a female orgasm can be attained.

This is so obviously misleading that it would be laughable if it wasn't so horrifying, and is exactly why we need to keep talking about it.

We certainly shouldn't let prudishness get in the way of stoping people being misled. We are all grown women who know what a female orgasm is like.

I can't think of any other type of person who sets reading lists and then demands others uncover the arguments for both sides, rather than engaging properly in the discussion themselves.

It seems to be a popular TRA tactic on here. Over the last couple of years I've interacted with a few posters doing this. There are often 'favourite' papers which crop up again and again as 'proof' of something (when they're nothing of the sort). The Endocrine Society position statement was one of those a year or two ago (someone posted it on here again recently). I assume someone posts something on twitter saying it's important and that it 'proves' something and then they all pounce on it.

Frack's reading list was at least different - I hadn't seen those particular papers before. But I notice Frack hasn't come back to tell us why these particular papers are so important in their view.

Probably too busy reading all those secret supporters messages and checking to see if she's left a checkable trail if she's ever shared an academic article she shouldn't now she's been told it's not actually allowed.

I assume someone posts something on twitter saying it's important and that it 'proves' something and then they all pounce on it.

Frack's reading list was at least different - I hadn't seen those particular papers before. But I notice Frack hasn't come back to tell us why these particular papers are so important in their view.

Yes that's the point - if you want to convince people you have to engage with them and their arguments.

Yes, well spotted Tinsel
This puritanical streak tends to come out when a really important point has been made. See also "eeeuuw, you're all obsessed with genitals"

I don't recall any such hand wringing when such conversations were wrested from Jazz and broadcast on tv? Jazz had no problem posting Instagram pictures with penis cakes and dildos (iirc). We only know about the condition of Jazz' genitalia because they filmed and broadcast it! TRAs seem to do nothing but overshare about every detail of their sex life (fantasy or real)

It's only gross when the old mummies talk about sex. Our job is not to think or have an opinion. We are supposed to just vacantly, beatifically smile while we lay down under the crazy train...

This thread is exactly what is so infuriating about this whole debate. We would love some real studies to discuss. We beg for non-circular, non-nonsensical definitions so we can actually have a discussion. Women here took time out of their lives to read (what they could) of your links and, surprise surprise, it's just more of the same bullshit - all smoke and no substance.

You want to force us to celebrate mutilating and sterilizing minors - Our babies! - and this is the level of your discourse? It's insulting.

For the lurkers - it always goes this way. Without exception. There is no secret, amazing study. It literally does boil down to a giant toddler tantrum, 'I want! You're mean!'

Still waiting for evidence that outcomes are the same regardless of whether age on onset is pre or post puberty.

Your mother-blaming postion, Frack, that all adolescent-onset GD teens were just too scared at the age of 3, 5 or 8 to come out, is one of the more sexist things I've read anywhere. Mothers quite often know their children very well, spend an awful amount of time with them, and are in a very good position to describe childhood mental health and behaviours.

So far, all I've found out in this thread is that kids are being transitioned because of homophobia, and adolescent onset GD isn't real because parents are transphobes. Really fucking unconvincing.

Nothing to show why a model of social contagion should be debunked either.

Gonna keep on keeping on with my watchful waiting thanks very much. And making my own observations, such as 'transmasc kid had 4 hospitalizations for suicidality at the height of her gender dysphoria, but has been stable with no sucidality and no hospitalizations with group and individual DBT, and a more flexible approach to gender non-conformity plus self acceptance of sexuality.'

I'm sure I recall that during the Jazz episode when the procedure was done, the surgeon said something along the lines of how generally after surgery something akin to a female orgasm can be attained.

In addition to all the other obvious issues this is so comically "misogynists don't understand where the clitoris is or how it works" that I'm rolling my eyes.