Frack's reference post

[FrackOff]

Hi All
I have been asked in various threads for references. I am starting a new thread as I've lost track of all the conversations. I wasn't going to bother as people usually don't want to read them but since one or two have said they really do want to read them with an open mind, here are a few.

Reidar Schei Jessen & Katrina Roen (2019) Balancing in the margins
of gender: exploring psychologists’ meaning-making in their work with gender non- conforming youth seeking puberty suppression, Psychology & Sexuality, 10:2, 119-131, DOI: 10.1080/19419899.2019.1568290

ABSTRACT
The past 15 years have seen the growth of puberty suppression as the prevailing approach to supporting gender non-conforming children and youth. Puberty suppression is considered to provide time for weighing up the pros and cons of medical transition. Research based on binary under- standings of gender has demonstrated that a carefully selected group of gender non-conforming youth benefit from physical treatment and gender transition, but the research that details how psychologists can best support young people during this time is limited. This is the gap addressed by the current research. The purpose of the present study is to explore the meaning-making framework within which some clinical psychologists and gender non-conforming youth approach discussions of puberty suppression. Five semi-structured interviews were conducted with clinical psychologists working with gender non-conforming youth. The data were analysed using thematic analysis. The results indicate that there is pressure on gender non- conforming youth, often coming from families, friends and mass media, to buy into heteronormative and binary discourses regarding gender and what constitutes a good life. The results also indicate that the participants deploy affirmative and exploratory therapeutic strategies in their work, in order to enable gender non-conforming youth to make informed decisions regarding puberty suppression. Participants emphasized the importance of therapeutic approaches that explore non-binary gender discourses, alongside the use of puberty suppression and other medical interventions that enable clients to fit more with gender norms. The therapeutic balance between affirmation and exploration may shed light on how both research within the binary tradition and critics of binary assumptions are in danger of oversimplifying the process of gender identity development. This research highlights the importance of understanding the complex negotiation of gender discourses that are in tension with one another.

I'm not writing a paper. I'm not trying to be professional on here @BarbaraStrozzi so if you don't want flashbacks, don't engage!

I think it's possible to hold many meanings of a concept in one's head.

🤣🤣🤣

It says gender identity is your personal sense of your gender. And gender is explained as masculinity or femininity!

Except that constantly changes over time and geography. Make up, wigs? Masculine one minute and feminine the next.

Skirts? Masculine in some countries, feminine in others.

And, of course, that's always assuming that you correlate femininity with female and masculinity with male.

Being good at maths? Is that masculine, or feminine??

Or is it masculine if a man is good at it, and feminine if a woman is?

How about cooking? Is it feminine when a woman does it for the family, but masculine when you're a top-notch chef saying fuck to all your underlings?? What if you're a woman chef saying fuck all your underlings? Does that rip a hole in the space time continuum?

If you think children should be permanent medical patients and surgically remove healthy body parts on the basis of whether or not they agree with their particular gender, at a given moment in time, you really need to have a more concrete foundation.

So basically, masculinity and femininity, like what I said before.

Cross-posted!

Public outreach, Frack, public outreach.

If you can't explain to people that gender in the sense of social expectations and gender in the sense of innate gender identity are separate concepts, and that it's important to distinguish between the two (I hope that you can distinguish between the two as you hold those many meanings in your head simultaneously) then you're failing utterly in doing public outreach.

(You'd also be failing if you tried to do it in an academic paper).

As always, the answer is more actual feminism.

I think it's possible to hold many meanings of a concept in one's head

not if one wants to make any fucking sense, or sort ones thoughts in any coherent way

or if one wants to do that, perhaps one should take the time to explain which of one's many meanings one if referring to on this occasion

just a suggestion from one to one

I think it's possible to hold many meanings of a concept in one's head

That's as may be but if you want to communicate with others you need to be specific about what meaning you have in mind. Other people are not psychic.

I looked up the 'gender identity' wiki link, and it sent me to 'gender':

'Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex (i.e., the state of being male, female, or an intersex variation), sex-based social structures (i.e., gender roles), or gender identity'

Social structures means stereotypes imposed upon people, yes? And biological sex I think we all understand.

So ... the definition seems to vanish when you look at it. Gender identity means experience of gender, which is ... biological sex, sex stereotypes, or ... gender identity'.

This seems like circular logic.

Great post Barbara and yes, obfuscation seems to be the point of the exercise.

This is long but worth watching:

Whittle first tells us that 'gender' was invented in the 1950s by John Money. So this must mean gender is 4) An internal sense or feeling, and not 3) stereotyped sex roles. Because if there was no gender before the 50s then what the hell was all that other shit about for the past 10,000 years?

But then Whittle discusses the dress and presentation of several women in the audience and says 'I can spot about five different genders among you'. So 'gender' must now mean 3) stereotyped sex roles because it's all based on things like clothes and hairstyles, and because you can't know the internal senses or feelings of someone else unless they tell you.

And Stephen drifts between these two meanings effortlessly and frequently.

Stephen Whittle deliberately trained as a lawyer in order to change the law for the benefit of trans people, and has had considerable success, to the detriment of women and girls. It's not possible to do this without a deep understanding of the impotance of definitions and clarity of language in legislation.

The law is made out of words. This obfuscation is deliberate.

BONUS: If you watch to the end, Whittle reveals what proportion of trans people who have had a vaginoplasty are still able to orgasm

Blimey there are so many posts since I started writing mine. It took me so long to compose my post so it was within the guidelines but didn't inadvertently dose anyone with rohypnol.

So basically, masculinity and femininity, like what I said before.

Indeed. And isn't it amazing that femininity, which is meant to correlate with being female, is things like fragrant, soft, nurturing, gentle, supportive, kind.

Whereas masculine, correlating to being male, is strong, logical, leadership, clear headed, powerful, credible.

And if all these millions of women suddenly go being all strong, logical, rational and powerful, then, snakes alive, they're acting all masculine! And they're gender nonconforming, dontcha know.

Hello trans ideology.

frack - Since you subscribe to the idea that gender identity is your inner sense of how masculine or feminine you are, could you please, please, write me a list of characteristics that come under masculine and another one that come under feminine.

Please write down, in black-and-white, in actual words what you are telling me you subscribe to.

Masculine:

Feminine:

We do need a definitive list of what exactly is feminine/masculine. Shouldn’t be too difficult to put the one together.

It is the pressure to conform within a patriarchal system.

See, this is what I would call 'gender'. I can see why there are crossed wires!

Everything in that list would fit comfortably in my definition of 'gender' except 'being transgender' which is conformist as fuck. The very concept reifies gender (heteronormativity in your language) as a thing and also people are literally getting their bodies carved up in order to fit.

Great point, Pencils.

I didn't write it, but I do agree with it.

The 'gender identity' wikipedia page?

I always find it informative to click the 'talk' tab on wiki. Lots of archived discussion on this one. Also:

The Arbitration Committee has authorized uninvolved administrators to impose discretionary sanctions on users who edit pages related to (a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed, including this article.

I haven't come across a wiki page this problematic in a while.

Hahahahahahahahaha my kids were once talking about famous people they'd like to slap, and they decided on Foucault because I talked about him too much.

He was a paedophile. I'm on your kids' side.

was he? I didn't know that. Will check out

@BarbaraStrozzi I am not doing public engagement either. I am not here to work

frack

About that list? A list of characteristics that constitute gender identity.

apparently Simone deBeauvoir was in on it too
www.theguardian.com/world/2001/feb/24/jonhenley

About that list? A list of characteristics that constitute gender identity.

I’d be interested in that too. Then we can all tick off which ones we do and don’t match.

@Datun I don't see the point

Start here:

uncommongroundmedia.com/the-trojan-unicorn-queer-theory-and-paedophilia-part-i-%EF%BB%BF-dr-em/

Frack

The point is this. My several trans, nonbinary, and non trans friends and acquaintances do too, from girly girls and girly boys to macho men, tomboys and butch women. You say you don’t conform to gender stereotypes yet you then say this!

This is why I am confused. I feel that this is going around in circles. Why are you apply such appalling labels to your friends if you don’t believe in gender stereotypes.

applying