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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Another rough sex defence

155 replies

Imnobody4 · 05/11/2019 21:45

I'm really at a loss to comprehend what has happened to the jury here, I'm speechless. Juries no longer serve justice.
metro.co.uk/2019/11/04/man-cleared-savage-attack-girlfriend-claims-injured-weird-sex-game-11039580/

OP posts:
EoinMcLovesCakeJumper · 06/11/2019 19:37

It shouldn't even have been allowed to be put forward as a defence, that's the point. Juries don't usually know the ins and outs of the legal system and have to have specific points of law explained to them. I don't know what happened in this case, but they should have been told that it is not possible under UK law to consent to that level of harm.

CheersMedea · 06/11/2019 19:42

It shouldn't even have been allowed to be put forward as a defence, that's the point. Juries don't usually know the ins and outs of the legal system and have to have specific points of law explained to them. I don't know what happened in this case, but they should have been told that it is not possible under UK law to consent to that level of harm

Consent was not put forward as a defence so it isn't correct to say that the judiciary are ignoring the law.

The defence in the Kane Elliott case wasn't consent. It was that she had caused her own injuries.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/kane-elliott-cwmbran-trial-verdicts-17186670

WomanDaresTo · 06/11/2019 19:50

Consent was a defence in the Kane Elliot case:
The complainant told the police Elliott cut her with a knife when she refused to do it herself. She described him strangling her while she was on the floor

Kane Elliot "She said she wanted to try some new sex stuff. It got really weird. I did not know what to think. From there it just got violent. Her idea was to involve the violence with the sex. She insisted on strangulation. She just wanted more and more and more."

He seems not to have been charged with strangulation of her even though they both agree he did

CheersMedea · 06/11/2019 19:54

Consent was a defence in the Kane Elliot case

Consent is not a legal defence to this charge. He may have said that to the police but that is not the same as a legal defence. It you read the report of the trial, the defence was causation - that he did not cause the wounds that caused death.

WomanDaresTo · 06/11/2019 20:07

When we say "in their defence" we mean "as part of their defence, they say that the woman consented to the violence"

I know there is no official "rough sex defence" that can be employed in the same way as the provocation defence once was (aka the nagging and shagging defence). But these claims as part of a defence work, just under half the time. This was a good piece in the telegraph and mail

That's why we're campaigning to move case law into statue so it's actually clear that you can't claim "she asked for it" when a woman has been killed or (as in this case) injured.

FannyCann · 06/11/2019 23:24

Thank you for all your work on this @WomanDaresTo
I feel so upset that my daughters are coming to adulthood at a time when women can be beaten and strangled and men all agree they loved it.

We must not let this bill "fall away" with the election.

  • Can we do something?

Yes you can - we've got a clarification of the law which Harriet Harman and Mark Garnier (Natalie Connolly's family's MP) have proposed. This was attached to the Domestic Abuse bill and now we are having a general election that bill "falls away". We need election candidates to commit to bring the bill back, and the amendments to end rough sex defences. Please ask your local candidates to commit to doing this.

We've got details here*: <a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=wecantconsenttothis.uk/actnow" target="_blank">https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/actnow

placemats · 07/11/2019 00:33

Sometimes because previous convictions of the accused could lead to 'an unfair trial'

In the case highlighted in the OP, it was obvious from the link that the accused had form for violent behaviour due to a previous case being highlighted in the press months previously. No one in the area he lived then would have been immune to the accused's past conviction. I do note however that the case was tried in a different area.

The next part of my post is somewhat off topic. But I feel it's important to the OP and the rough sex defence now being used in many cases.

All I'm going to say is that there is nearly always a background of violent behaviour when a murder takes place - I'm disregarding defence killings which strangely was the defence for the accused in the OP's post which the jury accepted (clearly, this is suspect given his now known past violent behaviour).

There are many women who disappear, presumed dead, and their bodies are never found. A prime example is the case of Ted Bundy whose known victims (30) are now presumed to be, sadly, the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how many he actually killed.

Murdering people by physical force using hands or a hand held weapon is the hallmark of a serial killer and there is always a sexual element to it.

BouquetOfRoses · 07/11/2019 01:29

Reading that was distressing, that poor woman to have endured it. Thanks How can the jury have denied her justice

Driechdrizzle · 07/11/2019 08:18

That disgusting book Fifty Shades of Grey helped create this culture where women are seen as wanting extreme harm from men. And men are watching porn and getting ideas on how to do it.

The men getting away with this are a danger to society at large. They will do it again.

Huggybear16 · 07/11/2019 10:45

I can't find the post that I read yesterday to quote the poster, but copied it to my clipboard already:

It is the constant stream of cases like this that has informed my decision to stay the hell away from men for the rest of my life, because it is a serious compromise of any woman's personal safety to become involved with them

I completely agree. I have zero interest in persuing another relationship with any man at any time. I feel more strongly about this as time passes and as more of these stories come to light. I know that there are good men out there, but trying to find one just isn't worth the risk.

Some women aren't persuing relationships due to the fear of being killed. Worse than that, when a woman is killed by a man, and all the evidence points to the man being guilty, he is still, somehow, found not guilty.

It's 2019. It's terrifying.

Thank you @WomanDaresTo for
wecantconsenttothis.uk/actnow

Justhadathought · 07/11/2019 10:58

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/07/grace-millane-trial-cctv-footage-shows-uk-backpackers-final-hours

The above article relates to the murder of British backpacker Grace Millane, who was strangled and her body buried in a suitcase in New Zealand. The defence counsel are wanting to know whether she ever talked to any of her friends about BDSM. The implication being that it could have been a consensual sexual act 'gone wrong'.

FannyCann · 07/11/2019 11:22

JFC the defence will dig out she once read 50 fucking shades and use that as evidence against her.

I never read it, (ok flicked through in a book shop to confirm my worst prejudices) but I bloody hate that book. It's done so much harm. And that woman has made zillions off the back of. Driechdrizzle

EoinMcLovesCakeJumper · 07/11/2019 11:47

Huggybear16 that quote was from me. Yes, that's the state of affairs we're dealing with now - women who have made an active choice not to get into relationships with men because they are afraid of being killed and then having our post-death reputations besmirched by our murderers saying that we wanted it. It's quite the contrast with the reasons given by MGTOW types for why they don't want anything more to do with women.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 07/11/2019 18:44

When do the judiciary ignore this? In the summing up, presumably.

Recently a body modifier was convicted even though his clients had not complained and stood as witnsses for him.

The judge made it clear that a person cannot consent to such pain and damage to their person so, even though the customers were satisfied with the work they had commissioned he was found guilty!

This apparently does not apply to women when they are beaten and killed by sexual partners! Though I have yet to see the legal caveat in writing!

AutumnRose1 · 07/11/2019 19:07

Took them five hours to acquit him

I’m wondering if there’s a way to see written records from court.

AutumnRose1 · 07/11/2019 19:09

Re not pursuing relationships with men, there’s a million reasons apart from this one. But the fear stops me making friends with them as well.

I actually really want to tell my teenage goddaughter about cases like this but I guess I’ll wait till she’s older.

BarbaraStrozzi · 07/11/2019 19:10

Jury deliberations are private, not recorded and can't be discussed afterwards. It's a fundamental principle of the jury system (to protect jury members from outside influence).

AutumnRose1 · 07/11/2019 19:11

Barbara, I know, sorry was unclear

I mean the court records of evidence etc

Fizzypoo · 07/11/2019 19:14

What the actual fuck. What a fucking world to live in.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 07/11/2019 19:22

I'd like to see the judge's summing up. I know I relied on it when a couple of fellow jurors went seriously off piste and suggested a witness was the master mind behind the crime - he was a victim, they cost him his business.

FannyCann · 07/11/2019 19:28

I actually really want to tell my teenage goddaughter about cases like this but I guess I’ll wait till she’s older.

I hate to upset my DD2 who has yet to have a boyfriend (late teens) her innocence is so sweet but it has to be discussed. Tbh I can hardly bear to read the reports re Grace but she has so it was a good chance to have a short chat about the rise of porn/strangulation/the change in the law in New Zealand and why we need same here. Poor girl. She may as well become a nun. I've totally terrorised her now. ConfusedSad

OxfordCat · 07/11/2019 19:42

This is so awful. I really hope they change the law. I'm disgusted and depressed by what I've just read. Sad

AutumnRose1 · 07/11/2019 20:20

"She may as well become a nun"

it is possible to have a man free life without being a nun Grin

WhineUp · 07/11/2019 21:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WhineUp · 07/11/2019 21:55

Uh huh. My thread was deleted. Apparently giving descriptions of just what women have to suffer at the hands of men is a massive no-no.