Why is comparing Womanface to Blackface offensive?

[Backinthecloset123]

I've seen quite a few people state this is offensive and still don't understand why.

Here's an example.

twitter.com/Bon_QuiGirl/status/1189546024479707137?s=19

Could someone explain?

The way I see it, the abhorrence of the history of slavery and racism, and of course blackface, can be equated to the abhorrence of Womanface due to the history of the rape, abuse, murder and hatred towards women by men, the FGM taking place to this day, the murdered female infants, the list goes on.

I am trying hard to understand and would love to hear why my thinking is wrong, and the comparison offensive. I have no hidden agenda.

Typo and clarification!

"Two countries divided by a common language" not "counties"!

"why not a male Pantomime Dame Fairy Godmother??"

Thanks Molesmokes. I really enjoyed reading your post and the articles you linked.

Tituba did a thread explaining why WF / BF is offensive to black women (it is linked on page one).

She also thought TRAs would use this against GC, and she was right.

When anyway did we even start using the term "black face" in the UK in common parlance, as opposed to academic discourse and "woke speak"? The "Black & White Minstrels Show" featured white men who "blacked up" (apart from Lenny Henry, of course) not white men who "did black face".

I just thought that 'black face' was American for 'blacking up' - just a linguistic difference. This thread has taught me quite a lot. And I didn't know that Lenny Henry had appeared on the Black and White Minstrel show.

The main criticism in the Twitter threads is specifically about white women who are "GC RadFems" in the UK. I wonder if a large part of the reason for that is that we have imported the term "black face" from the USA thinking that it is equivalent to "blacking up" when it does not have the same meaning or resonances.

This is certainly what I thought. Whilst the Black and White Minstrel show was obviously racist, I had no idea that minstrel shows in the US were connected with lynchings.

The black women in the USA objecting to "woman face" must know what it is we are getting at when we use that term. I am genuinely interested to know what term they would use instead. It might be another term that does not "travel" well but it would be useful to know.

I agree. We need a word for this.

Thanks nettie434

Thanks for those screenshots of Tituba's tweets 2BeThatUnnoticed . I don't think I saw those ones before - but I definitely did see ones where she uses the abbreviation "Hx".

I had to look it up and thought that it looked "medical", like "Rx" (rehabilitation). If anyone else is baffled, Hx = "history" or "medical history"

Thinking about possible alternatives to "woman face" (I haven't come up with one) and the earlier discussions in this thread about the history of drag vs what is happening now with drag, ie. another recent "appropriation" by Queerdom.

As well as the "drag kids" phenomenon, there are appalling subversions like the UK drag "JonBenét Patricia Ramsey impersonator" (screenshots).

"JonBenét Patricia Ramsey (August 6, 1990 – December 25, 1996) was an American child beauty queen who was killed at the age of 6 in her family's home in Boulder, Colorado. A lengthy handwritten ransom note was found in the house.

Her father John found the girl's body in the basement of their house about eight hours after she had been reported missing.

She sustained a broken skull from a blow to the head and had been strangled; a garrote was found tied around her neck. The autopsy report stated that the official cause of death was "asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma."

Her death was ruled a homicide.

The case generated nationwide public and media interest, in part because her mother Patsy Ramsey (herself a former beauty queen) had entered JonBenét into a series of child beauty pageants. The crime is still unsolved and remains an open investigation with the Boulder Police Department."

continues at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_JonBenét_Ramsey

I am sure a lot of people involved with drag must be appalled by what is going on in the name of "drag" these days.

When anyway did we even start using the term "black face" in the UK in common parlance, as opposed to academic discourse and "woke speak"? The "Black & White Minstrels Show" featured white men who "blacked up" (apart from Lenny Henry, of course) not white men who "did black face".

I actually thought "blackface" was specifically a US term, similar (giving a trivial example) to how "diaper" is used in the US and "nappy" in the UK (I am not in or from the UK or US).

In a specifically UK context, "blacking up" may have been offensive and demeaning, the way drag can be to women. It may have contributed to racist attitudes, indirectly making racist violence more permissible.

But - unlike in the US - it seems there was no direct, causative link between "blacking up" and severe, systemic oppression of black people, including slavery, rape and murder. Did the UK pass laws to enable white men to rape black women and sell the resulting babies as chattels? Did white people lynch black people in popular public spectacles, and photograph their bodies for post cards?

For many outside the UK, the specific term "Blackface" evokes all of this.

At least 148 Black women were lynched during that era. E.g. Laura Nelson (pictured in the Twitter thread) who was raped before being hanged alongside her young son. She had her 3yo daughter with her too, whom she set down on the ground before she was hanged. They were near a river at the time and I would have been stressing that my toddler would fall into the water and drown. No one knows what happened to Mrs Nelson's toddler or her newborn baby.

This human tragedy is what "Blackface" evokes for many outside the UK - whereas British women are thinking of the Black & White Minstrels. So I think there has been a huge linguistic and cross cultural misunderstanding here. Full credit to those on both sides who have tried to resolve it.

The main criticism in the Twitter threads is specifically about white women who are "GC RadFems" in the UK. I wonder if a large part of the reason for that is that we have imported the term "black face" from the USA thinking that it is equivalent to "blacking up" when it does not have the same meaning or resonances.

I think this is right.

Unfortunately this has given TRAs in the US ammunition to push the "GC = right wing racist!" falsehood. Both black and white feminists in the US are trying to combat this.

The black women in the USA objecting to "woman face" must know what it is we are getting at when we use that term. I am genuinely interested to know what term they would use instead. It might be another term that does not "travel" well but it would be useful to know.

Good question. If UK people say "blacking up," would it work to say "womaning up?"

Other ideas I've seen:

[MN we are not talking necessarily about actual trans people here - but a particular small group of persons who may not even be trans - hence this comment is within the guidelines]:

• LARP-ing as women (Live Action Role Play)
• macho ma'ams
• body snatchers
• pantomine dames

I don't think womaning up alone works, as it's sometimes used as 'man up' ie be brave. Maybe x individual is womaning up like blacking up, to draw the comparison. But it's clunky.

Blacking up and blackface are the same thing - darkening the skin in order to parody black people. Why are people arguing that ‘blacking up’ is somehow ‘more benign’ because ‘we didn’t have slavery in the UK, innit?’ (some might want to read some history about where the trade slave started - clue: it wasn’t the USA). Pack it in.

And saying it was ok because Lenny Henry was on the B&W Minstrel show? No. Really. Just fucking stop it. It wasn’t ok, we don’t get to justify systemic racism in light entertainment on 70s tv because black entertainers were more or less coerced into being complicit if they wanted to be entertainers on 70s tv. What the fuck were they supposed to do about it? Lenny Henry was a teenager, he just wanted to be a comedian and impressionist, we don’t get to point to him now and say ‘well he went along with it’ as if that were a situation of his own choosing or making.

Right now, I’m here: if black women say they find ‘womanface’ problematic then maybe they have a point and maybe I should listen to them and find some other way of expressing the concept of men appropriating female presentation. If it costs me nothing to do that and means life’s a tiny bit more pleasant for them then why wouldn’t I?

*Slave trade not trade slave

Good question. If UK people say "blacking up," would it work to say "womaning up?"

I think there is a problem that just as British people have assumed that 'blackface' was the American term for 'blacking up', Americans might assume that 'blacking up' is just the British term for 'blackface', so it would still be just as offensive.

I think we just need to get away from the comparison altogether, because the motivations of men who portray themselves as women are mostly very different from the motivations of white people impersonating black people.

And saying it was ok because Lenny Henry was on the B&W Minstrel show?

Nobody on here has said that.

I prefer the term blackfishing for women darkening their skin, dying their hair, wearing dark coloured contact lenses, applying contouring makeup, and dressing to appear as if they were mixed or black.

I think drag is drag and should not be changed to womanface similar to blackface or anything similar to do with racial discrimination. It is it’s own term. Having its own term doesn’t mean we cannot highlight and address the sexist issues with it. There is no need to appropriate the terms relating to racial discrimination to accomplish raising awareness or addressing issues of sex discrimination.

Nobody on here has said that.

The implication was exactly that. It was said that ‘UK B & W Minstrels weren’t doing ‘blackface’ just ‘blacking up’.
They are the same thing!
And the gratuitous mention of Lenny Henry? That wasn’t suggesting ‘oh and he’s black so that makes it ok’ was it? Give over.

It was said that ‘UK B & W Minstrels weren’t doing ‘blackface’ just ‘blacking up’. They are the same thing!

Have you read the whole thread? This whole discussion is about the differences in language and what the actual terms mean for people in different countries and how 'blacking up' to British people doesn't mean exactly the same as 'blackface' does to American people.

And the gratuitous mention of Lenny Henry? That wasn’t suggesting ‘oh and he’s black so that makes it ok’ was it?

That wasn't how I read @MoleSmokes's post. I don't think that's what she meant at all.

I don't know that it's wrong, when trying to get a sense of how some idea or behaviour was thought of historically, to look at how people at the time behaved and responded to it. It's a standard approach in historical research.

QuantumEntanglement this discussion is happening because different people have different understandings of terms and have been using them in different ways.

My feeling is that in the UK "blackface" conjures up the grotesquery of the exaggerated features of "blackface Minstrels", hence the use of "woman face" to refer to the grotesquery of the exaggerated features of drag queens.

Some people seem to agree and also to agree that in the UK it has been more usual to refer to the "Minstrel practice" as "blacking up".

The issue is not whether "blackface" and "blacking up" refer to different things, although it is certainly arguable that they can and do in different places at different times, but that in the USA the term "blackface" as well as the practice has a specific resonance that relates to the KKK.

This has recently been brought to the attention of white UK feminists and I suspect that it will not be just on Mumsnet that women are thinking and talking about how we got to this place and how, individually, we respond.

Blackened Faces: Histories and terms

I am not an academic. I am a white woman who has only lived in the UK and I have only my personal experience and internet-ferreting to go on. I am doing my best to understand these issues, how they seem to have changed during my lifetime and in particular the last 25 years (reference to 1994 documentary below).

To pick up the points about history of "blackface" and "blacking up" first, before having a think about the suggestions for alternatives to "woman face" . . .

As well as confusion and misunderstandings caused by terms having different meanings and resonances in different places and at different times, there are also misinterpretations of different reasons why faces and bodies might, involuntary or deliberately, be "blackened". I hope it helps to mention some of these. They illustrate other cross-cultural misunderstandings relating to the terms "blacking up" and "blackface", as well as different traditions that had and have nothing to do with mimicking, mocking or inciting violence against black people.

This point is neatly illustrated by the fact that if you enter "Blacking up" into Wikipedia Search the page re-directs to the page on "Blackface", which is headed by a warning that:

"The examples and perspective in this article deal primarily with the United States and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject." (NB. There are no historical references to the KKK employing blackface.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

Nevertheless, that Wikipedia "Blackface" page contains examples of traditions in different parts of the world where people in the past and/or now blacken faces for reasons that have nothing to do with mimicking, mocking or inciting violence against black people.

(I keep emphasising that point to remind that this is not a simple issue, not to deny that other examples are clearly racist.)

eg. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#United_Kingdom

Most often the practice had everything to do with disguise for concealment or protection against identification, particularly at night, and masks were a fancier alternative. I do not know if people in those places now or in the past referred or refer to those practices as either "blacking up" or "black face". Maybe someone else can shed light on that?

Black Act 1723

Wikipedia (part of the Blackface in the UK section):

"From 1723–1823, it was a criminal offence to blacken one's face in some circumstances, with a punishment of death. The Black Act was passed at a time of economic downturn that led to heightened social tensions, and in response to a series of raids by two groups of poachers who blackened their faces to prevent identification. Blackening one's face with soot, lampblack, boot polish or coal dust was a traditional form of disguise, or masking, especially at night when poaching."

I did not know about the Black Act 1723 before looking into this issue but I did know about the practice of blackening faces for disguise or concealment. Who does not? Soldiers camouflaging faces is an obvious example.

"The Black Act 1723 (9 Geo. 1 c. 22) was an Act of the Parliament of Great Britain passed in 1723 in response to a series of raids by two groups of poachers, known as the Blacks. It was expanded over the years. It greatly strengthened the criminal code. It specified over 200 capital crimes, many with intensified punishment."

To continue to read how if you were poor you should choose death by starvation or capital punishment:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Act_1723

I also did know all about the Rebecca Rioters because we covered them in History at school. Would people at the time have talked, in Welsh or English, about the Rebecca Rioters "cross-dressing" and "blacking up" before they attacked toll booths and turnpikes? The "Daughters of Rebecca" feature in historical re-enactments. How should we talk about them in that context? (Not rhetorical questions.) I am guessing people would feel comfortable referring to them as "cross-dressing" but less so, if aware of this debate, as "blacking up".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Riots

SIR LENNY HENRY

QuantumEntanglement Gobsmacked that anyone in the UK could think a reference to Lenny Henry "gratuitous" in the context of this discussion and the "Black and White Minstrels". Also surprised that this was not, as I imagined, common knowledge. Lenny Henry was on Radio 4 within the last couple of weeks talking about the experience and is on record many times discussing this. If his perspective is not important enough to mention then I do not know whose is.

Lenny Henry made a documentary with his new film company in 1994 that, I would suggest, is essential viewing. There are sections that cover "blackface" from both the UK and USA perspective, including interviews with black men and women in their 70's, 80's and 90's who performed as "blackface Minstrels" with Josephine Baker.

I could not find it on the BBC website (it was screened as an episode of the South Bank Show) but there is a copy on YouTube:

"Darker Than Me: Exploring The Roots of African-American Comedy (1994)"

"Lenny Henry produced and hosted Darker Than Me, a one hour documentary for British TV which unearthed the roots of black American comedy in white racism. Features interviews with David Alan Grier, Cleo Hayes, Lenny Henry, Robin Montague, Paul Mooney, Thea Vidale, Keenen Ivory Wayans. Original airdate: February 6, 1994."

I re-watched it. No references to the KKK, which makes me wonder when this association with "blackface" became more prominent than "the Minstrels" in the USA? I had another root around the internet, without any luck.

As mentioned already, the only references on the Wikipedia Page are to current scandals. This would suggest that it is not only white feminists in the UK who are unaware of the link. Maybe the US trans activists (mostly white?) yelling, "Racist!" at a small group of women in the UK for using the term "Woman face" could turn their attention to educating a wider audience?

ALTERNATIVES TO "WOMAN FACE"?

Alternatives suggested by 2BthatUnnoticed

• Womanning-up (as in "blacking up")
• LARP-ing as women (Live Action Role Play)
• macho ma'ams
• body snatchers
• pantomine dames

Thank you for the suggestions - much appreciated!

Womanning-up - As mentioned, already in use to contrast with "manning-up"

LARPing as women - I do not know enough about LARP to know whether this "works" but I have seen it being used - and had to look up "LARPing"! When I looked it up, it made sense.

Macho Ma'ams - I have seen this used very recently and wondered if it was a reference to the "Call me Ma'am!" video?

Body snatchers - never seen this used. I can imagine it working well with reference to proposals to use discarded organs from "sex change surgery" for others moving in the opposite direction and for detransition surgical reversals.

Pantomime Dames - this one does not work for me personally because Pantomime Dames are already a real life and very specific phenomenon.

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I will not use it now, because of what I have been told about the term "blackface" in relation to the KKK, but I have to confess that if that was not in the equation then it is difficult to think of a more appropriate term than "Woman Face".

No references to the KKK, which makes me wonder when this association with "blackface" became more prominent than "the Minstrels" in the USA?

I've also not had much luck coming up with anything really substantial about this. I'm starting to wonder if it really is such a prominent association.

BBC woman's hour is talking drag today. Starts 10.00 Radio 4

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000b5kb