Why is comparing Womanface to Blackface offensive?

[Backinthecloset123]

I've seen quite a few people state this is offensive and still don't understand why.

Here's an example.

twitter.com/Bon_QuiGirl/status/1189546024479707137?s=19

Could someone explain?

The way I see it, the abhorrence of the history of slavery and racism, and of course blackface, can be equated to the abhorrence of Womanface due to the history of the rape, abuse, murder and hatred towards women by men, the FGM taking place to this day, the murdered female infants, the list goes on.

I am trying hard to understand and would love to hear why my thinking is wrong, and the comparison offensive. I have no hidden agenda.

Have we all seen the drag abortion act thread?

Sure, they don't hate us.

Thanks creepster.

seems to me you can't understand the origins of racism without understanding the origins of sexism first

Remember what John Lennon said about 'Woman', and he was right.......

How honest is it, though, to use the blackface analogy? If it's just because it's something you know is unacceptable nowadays, not entirely sure why, then it's lazy to use it

Who says it's unacceptable? Some black women. Black women are not a sacred caste nor are they an amorphous mass. I agree with some and disagree with others. I'll choose to think what I want based on views and persuasive arguments. I'll agree with those with whom I have an ideological affinity.

Some black women say prostitution is empowering and you're racist if you disagree.
Some Muslim women say the hijab is an empowered choice and we should help them fight to get halal lipstick.
Doesn't mean I get to set aside my own views on these things.

Ok, I'm a bit confused now after the last few pages. My understanding of the use of 'womanface' in feminist conversation recently has been specifically in relation to the prevalence of drag artists. This is where the comparison to blackface strikes me as inaccurate enough to not be helpful.

Drag is entertainment based on stereotypes, often negative ones, of women. Blackface was entertainment based on horrible caricatures of black people. The difference that is crucial here is that blackface was a tool actively used in the ongoing violent oppression of black people, including women. RuPaul's dragrace is unpleasant and rife with negative female stereotypes, but it isn't being used as a tool to actively encourage violence against women.

If we're talking about the elements of Transactivism that use Trf as a pejorative, complete with drawings of hanged women or pictures of weapon wielding assailants via 'POV if you're a Trf in my mentions', then I think we are a lot closer to womanface being an accurate analogy.

Who says it's unacceptable?

I mean blackface itself not being acceptable, not the use of the word.

It seems like some people use blackface as an analogy without knowing much about it or having any experience with it. So I do wonder why they pick it? Seems a bit disingenuous.

However, if someone did have knowledge of the history of blackface, or personal experience with racism and used the analogy thoughtfully, then it would be different.

They pick it as a point of comparison because they're both about dressing up as something you're not.
There was a recent thread saying we couldn't compare the silencing of feminist activists and academics with the rise of Nazi Germany.

I think parallels are useful. Sure, when examined there are distinct divergences. But in understanding patterns they are useful.

'Drag is entertainment based on stereotypes, often negative ones, of women. Blackface was entertainment based on horrible caricatures of black people'

Drag is horrible caricatures.
How can people not see that.

The names.
Earlier on the thread, Cupid stunt.
Another thread, drag persona is called Sandra bollock. Who laughs at that name? It's so utterly disrespectful. I remember as it was the other day and the person who uses this persona is quite mainstream in other roles.

And many more examples.

It is toxic misogyny that only gets airtime in a society where women are inferior.

I don't do this comparison using the terms.

But thinking women have laughable bodies and 2d stereotype personalities doesn't reflect our position? No.

I mean blackface itself not being acceptable, not the use of the word.

I understand the details of why black face is harmful and offensive, but is it also therefore wrong to talk about 'yellow face'?

To argue that the consequences of historical racism have always been worse than the consequences of historical sexism just seems incorrect.

And taking the piss out of us. Of what they think we are. Because we aren't real people, just types.

Fyi I fucking hate pantomime dames as well.

And tits always seem important. Which is sex, not gender.

They pick it as a point of comparison because they're both about dressing up as something you're not.

Everyone has experience with dressing up, halloween, theater etc. So if that's all people meant, they would have plenty of examples. Blackface is a kind of dressing up that's not socially acceptable. That's why people use it in argument.

Some people who refer to blackface don't even necessarily appreciate why it's unacceptable. They just know it's something that carries moral force.

But I think we agree on essentials. Drawing thoughtful parallels is great, and some people on here and on the twitter thread have made really interesting comments about blackface and drag.

Drag is entertainment based on stereotypes, often negative ones, of women. Blackface was entertainment based on horrible caricatures of black people

Drag is horrible caricatures
How can people not see that.

You've misunderstood my post, which is probably my fault for not constructing my parallel there using exactly the same terms. I agree with you. They both use hideous caricatures of the targets of the parody.

My point was that the purpose is not the same. Blackface was an active propaganda tool against black people in the US to stoke up violence toward them. DragRace is deeply horrible mockery, but it isn't being used to justify violence against women.

As I said, the tweets picturing hanged women and vaguely 'feminized' men with weapons are a much closer analogy.

To argue that the consequences of historical racism have always been worse than the consequences of historical sexism just seems incorrect.

I honestly don't think anybody has tried to make that argument. It would be a silly argument to make, I agree.

Aw fuck typed a long post lost it.

Summary.
Women have always been oppressed and still are. Horribly, around the world.
We die and get killed in droves because we are seen as, treated as, less than human.
The fact this is seen as the norm, which is what it boils down to, is awful.

Women are not seen as fully people anywhere, as far as I know. I mean barring tiny groups, somewhere.

Looking years ago at what happened in USA. Terrible. Women being bought and sold as they weren't allowed to work under taleban. Less terrible?

Missing millions?

This needs to not be a numbers game.

Because the numbers usually counted are male.

Not sure what your point is fraggling. I obviously agree with you, I don't like or support drag, and I don't think there is a hierarchy of oppression and women don't count.🤷‍♀️

Like PP have pointed out, I feel that people telling us not to use 'womanface' are unacquainted with women's history.

'Drag is entertainment based on stereotypes, often negative ones, of women. Blackface was entertainment based on horrible caricatures of black people'

Bit pissed not going back

If you said that, it clearly says, well, what you wrote. I take issue with what you wrote.

Sorry if it wasn't you.

I think the hierarchy of oppression angle exists here because some black women find it painful to be reminded of slavery and therefore the Western academic practice of parallels and analogies must be set aside.

Fraggling, well, perhaps when you're not pissed you can read my response to your quoting that part of my post up thread already.

And I should have added - it's not just history, it's the current vicious pushback on women's rights. Racism is rightly seen as abhorent.

Sexism against women is just routine.

Blackface was an active propaganda tool against black people in the US to stoke up violence toward them.

But again, does that make it also wrong to talk about 'yellowface'?

There is a long history of racism in entertainment in European culture that predates American slavery - is that 'black face' or something different? Should we use a different word to describe it?

There is a long history of racism in entertainment in European culture that predates American slavery - is that 'black face' or something different

Yes, look at Shylock.

Are there black women who think it’s acceptable though? Genuine question.

Since black women are both:

A. dehumanised by Blackface (by white men blackening their skin, padding to imitate boobs/butt & acting sub-human; and

B. mocked by drag (by black men wearing dresses and acting hyper-feminine and silly)

I legit think it is their comparison to make if they want to.

I don’t understand why every movement ever (not just GC, TRA) must use the suffering of black people to argue their cause, and gets offended if black people object.

Many people have their own family histories of oppression, whether English / Scottish / Irish / convicts / refugees / First Nations. Why not draw comparisons from there?

(And yes people may pull your histories apart or say you’ve misinterpreted or are over sensitive or oppression Olympics... but better that, than you weaponise the suffering of another group)

Why are women's experiences of being mocked and aped and degraded and assaulted and raped and enslaved and aborted and killed, being discounted, and we're the ones being told to shut up?

No one is telling anyone to shut up

Black women, who experience all those things, and another layer of oppression due to racism

Have let white women know

That WW equating blackface with drag is a painful and inaccurate comparison for BW

Noting that only black women are mocked by BOTH practices

Unlike black men or white women

They have asked, could WW even sometimes, critique drag without comparing to blackface

That’s it.