Why is comparing Womanface to Blackface offensive?

[Backinthecloset123]

I've seen quite a few people state this is offensive and still don't understand why.

Here's an example.

twitter.com/Bon_QuiGirl/status/1189546024479707137?s=19

Could someone explain?

The way I see it, the abhorrence of the history of slavery and racism, and of course blackface, can be equated to the abhorrence of Womanface due to the history of the rape, abuse, murder and hatred towards women by men, the FGM taking place to this day, the murdered female infants, the list goes on.

I am trying hard to understand and would love to hear why my thinking is wrong, and the comparison offensive. I have no hidden agenda.

I find it confusing too.

Because genderists believe having a 'gender identity ' that conflicts with your biological sex is natural, but they don't believe in any innate 'race identity'.

I think this thread explains it pretty well.

mobile.twitter.com/XXIncarnate/status/1189640665736581127

I've had a look at the twitter thread and I think the objection is to comparing drag to blackface. But 'womanface' is not just drag, but men parodying women in a much more subtle way, and insisting that they are actually women.

The people on that thread who are objecting to the comparison are not very helpful in their explanations though. It's the usual 'I find it offensive so please stop' line. Doesn't help any of us to understand.

So it depends on what you mean by 'blackface' and 'womanface'. Is blackface Rachel Dolezal or the black and white minstrels? Is womanface drag or Rachel McKinnon?

I think this thread explains it pretty well.

I've read that thread as well now, and I still don't get it. But according to one person on there it's 'easy to learn'.

I think the difference is that the way we perform masculinity or femininity in any society is always to do with societal expectations, so mimicking the expected traits of the opposite sex is not of necessity contemptuous of their essential being, and is as capable of being subversive as it is of being oppressive.

Also, well, as a white person, I tend to work on the basis that, if black women say it's not OK, I should maybe just listen to them.

This isn't a widespread objection by black women though is it? To the phrase 'womanface' not to blackface obv.

The analogy is about an oppressive group dressing and performing as the oppressed group. Which is clearly the case.

And I don't think many groups can claim to have been as widely and systemically oppressed as POC in the US but if anyone can it's women. So all her equivalences in that thread are false.

Women are saying it is offensive for men to dress as them. Why don't they have the luxury of being believed?

The people on that thread who are objecting to the comparison are not very helpful in their explanations though. It's the usual 'I find it offensive so please stop' line. Doesn't help any of us to understand.

It's all in the pictures.

I think what she's saying is that black face was used to portray black people, and in particular black men, as dangerous and a threat to white people. It stoked racism and justified some pretty horrific acts against black people.

Drag on the other hand while insulting, is not being used to stir up hatred against women and justify acts of violence against us.

I think blackface usually refers to the black and white minstrels etc, and is offensive, it trades on an offensive set of stereotypes about black people. i don't think Rachel Dolzeal is doing blackface, although what she is doing is also offensive. I think that drag is nearest to blackface ....I suppose I don't always find drag offensive because it doesn't seem to relate to any real women, you coukd even say it pokes fun at stereotypes. I think what transwomen do is equivalent to what RD does, and is not really the equivalent of blackface- I'm assuming transwomen are attempting to pass as women, not parody stereotypes of women.
However I think it's useful to use terms like 'womanface' because it calls attention to what is being done- although the intention is not to parody, because the impersonation depends on stereotypes, the effect may be similar.

I have also read that Twitter thread and don’t understand it. But I’m afraid to post as I’m not a black woman so I’m probably missing something. Is she saying that ‘blackface’ caused lynchings? Not by the blacked face people themselves but by others? Women are murdered and assaulted by men - and degrading women by men doing ‘womanface’ in drag arguably dehumanises us so ...
I get that blackface is probably worse but I fail to see that there is no comparison at all.

Reading that lot (on the link) I thought I had entered some kind of parallel universe. What a load of claptrap and twaddle.

I believe it's because there is no innateness to the concept of womanface. Women don't have to wear make up or dresses (and many don't) but black people cannot opt out of their skin. It minimises the impact of what blackface actually was/is.

I think drag is sexist under a lot of circumstances but we should listen to GC black women who find the comparison offensive. We have more than enough arguments against gender ideology to use so I don't feel it's any hardship to stop using blackface as an analogy and alienating black women who want us to stop.

I've probably been guilty of drawing a comparison at some point on these boards but I've listened to the thoughtful rebuttals and it's given me a different perspective.

Oh that's much better said than my attempt!

We can't opt out of our breasts or bodies. Men dressing up as women always involves fake breasts and often padded bodies. We can't opt out of our higher voices which men often put on voices to mock. Our physical beings are appropriated and mocked by men.

People don't see sexism and misogyny which is why they can't see the misogyny in men dressing up as women.

Kenny Everett, Cupid Stunt:

Parkie and Kenny calling women stupid c*nts. No problem with that at all.

A black American colleague once told me that her race is the defining factor in how people treat her - even though she's well-educated, well-spoken, well-dressed, well-everything - so I can see how she would put womanface on a lesser level.

She was highly gender critical though and thought the whole trans thing was white male entitlement to the max.

I don't think it's a good idea to use the term "womanface", when there already is a term for men dressing as women which is "drag".

We can say drag is offensive. Which it is. Like someone pointed out, the "face" part of so-called "womenface" is something that can be removed both by our misogynist impersonators and by women ourselves.

Also, well, as a white person, I tend to work on the basis that, if black women say it's not OK, I should maybe just listen to them.

Followed by the next poster:
Women are saying it is offensive for men to dress as them. Why don't they have the luxury of being believed?

I agree with this ^. Plenty of women find drag offensive. Not all and a lot of women love it. But why aren't the ones that find it offensive listened to?

believe it's because there is no innateness to the concept of womanface. Women don't have to wear make up or dresses (and many don't) but black people cannot opt out of their skin.

But women who don't wear make up or dresses are still raped, murdered etc.

I'm very confused by this, there are many tweets and explanations about how and why it's offensive to compare blackface with womanface, then she comes out with this gem
Shame on you for prioritizing the perpetuation of a racist false equivalenlency and chiding BonQuigirl for daring to call a spade a spade
Does this person have any fucking idea what calling a spade a spade means? Does she even fucking know where this expression comes from.

According to Google it originates in Plutarch's Apophthegmata Laconica, Classical Greece in other words. It's not a racist phrase ButterisBest if that's what you're implying.

It refers to the garden implement used for digging. Nothing else.

Racism is no longer socially acceptable in most places while misogyny is still acceptable as long as it is framed as a joke or used as a marketing tool.
Both womanface and blackface are white male dominance displays.

It is a commonly used racist phrase in the US South.

I'm thinking this is where identity politics and grievance studies leave us. It becomes almost a competition for the Most Oppressed.