Why is comparing Womanface to Blackface offensive?

[Backinthecloset123]

I've seen quite a few people state this is offensive and still don't understand why.

Here's an example.

twitter.com/Bon_QuiGirl/status/1189546024479707137?s=19

Could someone explain?

The way I see it, the abhorrence of the history of slavery and racism, and of course blackface, can be equated to the abhorrence of Womanface due to the history of the rape, abuse, murder and hatred towards women by men, the FGM taking place to this day, the murdered female infants, the list goes on.

I am trying hard to understand and would love to hear why my thinking is wrong, and the comparison offensive. I have no hidden agenda.

Of course they’re not mocking homophobic men in drag. Homophobic men often love drag. The joke isn’t on them, it’s on women.

Parkie smirking at calling women stupid c*nts. Disgusting.

Everything karabair said!

And things change, and it’s different in different countries. In the uk (where I am) blackface was a public entertainment thing - utterly vile but not deliberately used to stoke hatred. It was people dressing up as in a grotesque way, and mocking, a group that they saw as lesser. It seems exactly the same as drag s today to me. Drag may have different origins but today it’s deeply misogynistic, a horrible parody of women as hyper sexualised, bitchy (misogynistic word there) shallow etc. It is not a ‘fond’ portrayal of women. And I think ‘womanface’ is an appropriate term - but it probably isn’t if you are in the US.
People are generally interested in issues that affect them. I’m a white woman in the uk & a volunteer with a group for young women that is having its single sex status challenged. one of my dds has already encountered a ‘man dressed as a woman’ (her words) in a public loo & it frightened her. I’m a biology teacher wondering if I won’t be allowed to teach the truth soon. I do feel personally threatened by the TRA movement. The struggle of black women in the us is undoubtedly worse but it’s not something I have any experience or knowledge of. We don’t all have to be angry about the same things.

I don’t like the phrase ‘womanface’. Posters like 2BThatUnnoticed and Mrsbertbibby have explained it better than I could.

The other reason is practical. If we want people to understand why sex based rights are important, then we need a clear message. Clips from the mixed relay race in the athletics this summer or dressing up as Man Friday work so well because they are immediately understandable. To me, ‘womanface’ just doesn’t cut the mustard because you have to be really familiar with these debates to even has heard the phrase, let alone understand what it means.

Basically we need to avoid any comparisons or parallels about anything where people have suffered. Vale all historical analysis!

I’m confused by some comments here. OP didn’t ask “is drag is offensive?” (fwiw I think it is)

OP asked “why is comparing drag to Blackface offensive?”

Black women have explained why.

And Black women (unlike WW) are mocked by Blackface and drag. BW (unlike WW) face sexism and racism. Including historically from white women.

If Black women ask white women to please, kindly, critique drag without comparing it to Blackface... is that really too much to ask?

For my part it's because people were making inaccurate statements about drag, like claiming that it doesnt' mock women's bodies and physical characteristics (it does) and also saying point blank to "Pick another battle".

I think it's better to understand the roots of each practice and analyse them carefully to understand how they operate. It is fair to say though that when men oppress a group of people, mockery and appropriation are two of the many tools they use to legitimise what they're doing.

It does surprise me though that some women, including feminists, literally are unable to see the fake breasts in drag.

But how similar do two things need to be in order to draw parallels between them? They don't need to be identical in every way.

I've just been at an exhibition which included how the Scottish Highlanders were brutally suppressed by their English overlords and laws were passed banning them from wearing their traditional dress (tartan). Highlanders were then caricatured in popular culture as lazy, feckless and stupid. Meanwhile the officers of the British Army were allowed to wear tartan. The Highlanders were driven off their lands into towns and cities and overseas to the lands that the British were colonising (the originis of the KKK in the US horrifyingly).

When men oppress a group they like to steal what belongs to that group and use it for their own purposes.

If people dislike the term womanface what word or phrase would they prefer to be used to make clear that drag is a deeply offensive mockery of characteristics that women cannot identify out of performed by men?

Men in misogynybody perhaps?

But how similar do two things need to be in order to draw parallels between them? They don't need to be identical in every way

Well exactly. This thread is a classic example of how identity politics makes one walk on eggshells. I'll listen to everyone's views and I will prioritise those who have direct experience. But I will make my mind up based on whether I support their ideological perspective.

OP asked “why is comparing drag to Blackface offensive?”

She actually asked "Why is comparing Womanface to Blackface offensive?"

Is "womanface" synonymous with "drag"? And does "drag" just mean the overly made up and sexualised performance of men impersonating women, or does it extend to all men who impersonate women or cross dress?

Is it the comparison of white people impersonating black people with men impersonating women that is the problem, or is it the word "womanface" itself?

While blackface and drag are both offensive impressions and both classes are killed, subjugated and appropriated the key difference is the blackface was used by white supremacist groups to impersonate black people not for entertainment or because they wanted to live that way, but to create a false impression of them to whip up hysteria which lead to their mass lynching.

There are also lots of ways in which men impersonate women, and lots of reasons for it. To beat them in sport, to gain access to vulnerable women in order to rape them, to take awards for women in business, to force them to touch male genitalia, for validation of their AGP, and so on.

Does the term "drag" include all these types of men? Up until seeing this thread, I would have used the word "womanface" to describe these men ("drag" doesn't seem to be the right word), but if that term is unacceptable, what term should we use?

"If Black women ask white women to please, kindly, critique drag without comparing it to Blackface... is that really too much to ask? confused"

I'm just wondering (and I don't know the answer), if those who are objecting to the use of the term womanface are predominantly American? As someone else noted, there is a difference in how racism manifests itself around the world. There is also a tendency for Americans to insist that their understanding is how everyone should see things and a total lack of understanding that something that's perfectly OK in the US may be incredibly racist elsewhere and something that's racist in the US may be quite OK in other places. Personally, I don't think it's a great thing for US understanding of race and ways of dealing with racism to be exported, it's not like the US is a bastion of best practice!

I think language is an important part of the "gender" trends that are concerning me, so I want to choose my words carefully. I didn't see anything wrong with "womanface" until it was pointed out to me, but now I would feel like I was blurring lines, as well as being disrespectful to use it. I don't think that just because a term is convenient or powerful makes it apt or appropriate. One reason I object to being called "cis" is because it diminishes "cis women" to a subset of women. Maybe we've all seen a genderist rattle of a list of types of women- "black women, disabled women, trans women, cis women..." I can't see how the various true subsets of women can unite successfully without trying to be aware of the differences between our realities as well as our commonalities.

And
If Black women ask white women to please, kindly, critique drag without comparing it to Blackface... is that really too much to ask?

I would love it if men respected us enough to not parody us with drag, but I don't want that to stop me from trying to show respect to people I want to make common cause with.

I've often come across the argument for pronouns- that it's such a little thing to ask. For me, this is nothing like "preferred pronouns" where I'd have to stomp on my sense of reality to say them. Where using them would be more of a type of submission, as opposed to acknowledging a (perhaps uncomfortable) truth.

I don't think it's a great thing for US understanding of race and ways of dealing with racism to be exported

Could not agree more. I consider it American cultural imperialism and as noted on another thread it results in nonsense like students in Glasgow complaining of a lack of 'ethnic minority' tutors while being oblivious to the in your face anti Irish bigotry on their doorstep.

No, drag doesn't incorporate those men. Those men are predatory misogynists.

Drag is a very long-standing cultural phenomenon which at times has been subversive and liberating, and at others, being as how everything is in thrall to the patriarchy, it becomes a tool of oppression of women.

Drag is a much more complex and nuanced issue than blackface, imo.

It isn't offensive...it is a comparable and valid comparison.

Some people will launch on it in a knee jerk "don't be so racist and insensitive" type way...because everyone know 'knows' it is 'wrong' to be racist these days and so people are terrified of making 'mistakes'.

I agree we should not refer to it as 'woman-face', though, in order to side step the obvious pit-falls and distractions from the deep misogyny inherent in much of drag and in much of MTF transgenderism.

Personally, I think our response to this is actual intersectional feminism. I have read black American women explaining the difference in nuance between how blackface was used in the US and why the glib use of womanface as a term is inaccurate. I know in the UK the historical use isn't quite as overtly violent. But if a black woman in a country where racism is still a very potent issue is telling me that using a phrase like womanface is not only painful in her context, but harms the argument because it evokes the same lack of nuance as those lists of women that align black women with trans, then I am going to take that on board.

If this was some blue haired white boy exploring zir's gender identity and thinking that zir could use a 'righteous' argument to shut down the comparison, I'd tell him to fuck off. But this is black feminist women who think that trans ideology is extremely bad and want to dismantle it, explaining how this is harmful to them and our wider cause, so I'm very inclined to pay attention.

Doesn't mean I'm going to stop pointing out that drag is rooted in misogynistic mockery. Just means I'm going to stop saying it's the same as blackface because an American black woman has explained that in her context, the comparison is not helpful or accurate.

so mimicking the expected traits of the opposite sex is not of necessity contemptuous of their essential being

And yet so often it is. It is reducing being female to a parody of certain stereotypical, & exaggerated, displays and 'performances'.

Drag on the other hand while insulting, is not being used to stir up hatred against women and justify acts of violence against us

Maybe that is not the explicit intention, but it certainly serves to propagate and manufacture offensive portrayals; involving the use of demeaning language and 'slag', 'slapper' motifs and tropes. As well as depicting female sexuality and female bodies as disgust worthy.

People don't see sexism and misogyny which is why they can't see the misogyny in men dressing up as women

Transgendersim and much drag makes it fine and more than acceptable for men to appropriate femalenesss, and even see themselves as doing it better than actual women...and in a way that we just don't see the other way around.

Why aren't there any 'drag king' TV shows, and forums full of women telling men how they do 'masculinity' better than them? It is because men still hold the reins of power.

Drag is a much more complex and nuanced issue than blackface, imo

Only because it is another oppressed group doing it, though.....in this case gay men; who in trying to empower themselves, and rejecting disdain on account of their perceived femininity, are trying to claim back that trait by appropriating it and sending it up. It is still reliant on the deep roots of disgust for women and their bodies and sexualities, though.

Drag mocks femininity - you can opt out of femininity but Black people cannot opt out of their skin colour

But you also said that 'black skin itself became a SYMBOL for other cultural stereotypes and representations. It doesn't make those representations true, though. In the same way that the symbols of womanhood, in the guise of cultural representations and stereotypes used in drag and MTF transgenderism, are not necessarily true of women.