Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

[gcnotterf1]

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

All Center Parcs need to do here is have a policy that reflects the law. They already have mixed sex changing rooms in the swimming pool areas based on the fact they have private cubicles. Just add private cubicles to the single-sex open plan spa changing rooms and it's essentially the same setup, just like any toilets which also have private cubicles. If a transgender female has a GRC (legally female) but hasn't undergone GRS, there's no way to exclude her from any type of changing room as that would be sex discrimination. If she's not got a GRC and hasn't undergone GRS you can't exclude her because she has protection via her "gender reassignment" protected characteristic under EA2010 (sex discrimination not applicable).
However there may be an exception to this if PMOAALA can be successfully achieved. Highly unlikely and it's never happened. Even if allowed it would need to be the least discriminating way of achieving the legitimate aim. Excluding someone is the most discriminating way. Better more inclusive ways are available.

Still not giving one shiny shit about transmen, are you?

They do have a policy that reflects the law and they are enacting it.

Balls. I said I wouldn't engage

The GRC once issued allows the recipient to get a new Birth Certificate exactly the same as any other Birth Certificate with sex marker: Female.

Indeed (or male) and, to date, less than 5000 have been issued. As opposed to the 500,000 people who identify as transgender.

So those 495,000 people will be compared to their natal sex in terms of discrimination.

It's my viewpoint, and the viewpoint of many that the GRC pathway should be scrapped. As it was only intended to be a workaround for same-sex marriage. Something that is now no longer necessary.

In terms of females being vulnerable whilst disrobing, imprisoned, or in a rape refuge , GirlOnTheRoof, my question to you is how can we tell the difference between a man with AGP, a man with gender dysphoria, a rapist or a paedophile?

@HumberHellraiser
The new Birth Certificate would have sex as:
Sex: "Male" for a transgender man.
Sex: "Female" for transgender woman.
That's the whole point in getting one...!

Why would it have sex: male for a transgender man (or female/woman) when it is their gender they are changing and not their sex?

The clue is in the name - transgender not transsex
Unless you are saying that people who are transgender are also transsex.

@tiredofthisbs

Balls.

How very apt

Are we expected to say male bodied instead of man on MN now?

Depends which monitor's on shift.

More BlokeInTheBasement, I reckon...

So we have to follow an inconsistent moderation policy?
@MNHQ we need to be told exactly what the policy is.
Are we expected not to use the word 'men/man' and instead say male bodied? If so, are we expected to use 'female bodied' instead of women/woman?

However there may be an exception to this if PMOAALA can be successfully achieved. Highly unlikely and it's never happened.

All the LOLs. As you've already been told, EHRC (captured) has already been required to amend its guidance on this to meet the actual, rather than the Stonewall, law of the land. The relevant parliamentary committee has already called for further action. The Labour manifesto has committed to that further action.

Have you got a cousin or do they not go to the same school?

@spacepyramid
The new Birth Certificate has a marker for Sex, not Gender Identity. The recipient is thereafter legally considered under the law as the Sex on their new Birth Certificate.

So we have to follow an inconsistent moderation policy?

Space - see:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3735271-Oh-look-its-those-guidelines-making-no-sense-whatsoever-again

At the very least, it does seem the Labour manifesto has caused sufficient consternation in certain activist circles to have caused a new effort to misrepresent the law in as many fora as possible.

GirlOnTheRoof

Are you able to answer my question?

How do we tell the difference between a man with AGP, a man with gender dysphoria, a rapist or a paedophile?

@spacepyramid
The new Birth Certificate has a marker for Sex, not Gender Identity. The recipient is thereafter legally considered under the law as the Sex on their new Birth Certificate.

So legally the sex is changing, in which case presumably the term transgender is out of date and needs to be transsexual ?

@Datun
Transgender women are not the problem here.
Predatory males however could be a problem.
There's an obvious difference between the two groups. Transgender woman are transitioning to female, identity as female, live as female, have surgery, get a GRC etc.
Predatory males don't do any of that. I doubt a predatory Male would go to Center Parcs with their family just to pretend to be a transgender woman to get access to a changing room. Even if they did, that's still not a valid reason to exclude transgender women.

Transgender woman are transitioning to female, identity as female, live as female, have surgery, get a GRC etc.

Where on earth did you get that idea? Many transwomen have beards, do not wear female clothing, and look exactly like men. Unless you are suggesting that people like Danielle Muscato and Alex Drummond who is on the Stonewall trans-advisory board, aren't transwomen?

So I'll ask you again, how can we tell the difference?

@spacepyramid
The EA2010 uses "gender reassignment"

A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

The EA2010 uses "gender reassignment"

The EA does yes, but you are talking specifically about sex and not gender since you are discussing the new birth certificate which has the new sex of the person - therefore they have changed sex.

If the new birth certificate which you mention had a space for gender I'd agree with you but that's not what it says and therefore it is not what we are discussing.

So, I ask, given that the new birth certificate shows that the person is now a different sex to the one on their original birth certficate, have they changed sex?

Well done CP

The EA still makes provision to exclude tw on the basis that it is a proportionate means to legitimate aim.

How about answering my question, girlontheroof?

Given the absolutely no outwards change is required, no surgery is required, how do we tell the difference between a man who identifies as a woman, and a paedophile, rapist or cross dressing fetishist, who, according to Stonewall is absolutely a transwoman?

Why do you think the families and children at centre parks should have to be the unwitting participants in the sexual fantasy of a cross dresser for example?

@Datun
What's driving your question?
How do you tell the difference?
I don't think appearances are what we should be judging. If you're transgender and are covered by EA2010 protected characteristic of gender reassignment, requirements have been met.