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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

999 replies

gcnotterf1 · 30/10/2019 14:51

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Datun · 01/11/2019 05:32

Very incisive Michelleoftheresistance.

It's the ultimate irony. Telling male born individuals to leverage their privilege in order to ride roughshod over women and their rights, to 'prove' they're women.

Alwaysgrey · 01/11/2019 07:56

I too suspect they don’t want to risk their bottom line but I don’t care as I’m glad to see a company stand up and not compromise women. I’m not very body confident at all. Going into change if I found I was changing next to a male bodied person I’d feel very uncomfortable.

GirlOnTheRoof · 21/11/2019 19:43

Pombear

Where did you get all that information from? Do you know this person?

GirlOnTheRoof · 29/11/2019 07:22

A lot of the posts on here seem very transphobic. If an individual has transitioned from one sex to the other, surely you should respect that and not attack it. A transgender female has the same rights as a cisgender female to use the ladies facilities.

Jumblebee · 29/11/2019 07:24

How does one change sex, GirlOnTheRoof? Given that sex is immutable?

Coldwatershock · 29/11/2019 07:31

You're a bit confused Roof. Nobody can change sex, only gender. Because they have not changed sex, sex based rights under the Equality Act protect females and transgender women do not have that 'right'. You might want to check out the Equality Act and exemptions. Plus there is no such thing as a 'cisgender female'. Again the thread might help you understand these terms if you read it properly. Oh and do report transphobia as MN have a policy on that.

TiredofthisBS · 29/11/2019 07:32

I'm sure you're here to troll Girlontgeroof but a few things. 1) Humans can not change sex. 2) Protecting Women's spaces is not transphobic. 3) I suggest you look at the equalities act regarding rights. 4) Kindly refrain from using cisgender as it is offensive to many of us and is banned by Mumsnet. 5) Transgender females are women who identify as men, no?

Narcissistic1 · 29/11/2019 07:58

Bang on the money CP. To many snowflakes around today who are here to destroy common sense.

GirlOnTheRoof · 29/11/2019 08:25

Once someone gets a GRC/New Birth Certificate their legal sex identity is changed. That's the whole purpose of the Act. Before that happens a Transgender person, Male or female, is protected against discrimination via the Equality Act because they have the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment". Which means they're in the process of transition. Exceptions to the Act, i.e. allowed discrimination, is only possible on a case by case basis under the principal of PMOAALA. Center Parcs clearly haven't applied that as this is a blanket policy.

Michelleoftheresistance · 29/11/2019 09:00

Either you haven't read the thread or you haven't understood many of the posts, Girl

There are multiple posts here explaining, including how the Equality Act works and the exemptions.

TiredofthisBS · 29/11/2019 09:03

They don't want to understand @Michelleoftheresistance they just want to come and tell us we're horrible people and to be nice.

Michelleoftheresistance · 29/11/2019 09:05

Yes, I get this thread has been rebooted purely to go around in the good old familiar circles because someone felt like a barney this morning. Just trying to be polite Wink

Info's all on the thread.

SoxiFodoujUmed · 29/11/2019 09:06

@GirlOnTheRoof the EHRC have clarified that "case by case" refers to each venue needing an independent decision for what the correct policy should be, and emphatically does not refer to being case by case in terms of judging each individual person.

People should definitely be protected from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment. that means that a male-bodied person who is wearing a dress and a wig etc should never be prevented from going swimming or doing any other thing that male-bodied people who are conforming to male gender expectations are allowed to do. but the comparator for whether they are being discriminated against is whether they are being treated at a disadvantage to other male-bodied person. providing them with a private third space to change in is not disadvantaging them in any way so it is not discrimination.

GirlOnTheRoof · 29/11/2019 09:12

You're clearly not open to a discussion on how the law is applied in this case. Instead you just repeat the same transphobic statements. If you want a proper respectful discussion I'm more than willing to have one.

LangCleg · 29/11/2019 09:15

Exceptions to the Act, i.e. allowed discrimination, is only possible on a case by case basis

The (captured) EHRC has had to partially review its guidance on the definition of case-by-case and the relevant parliamentary committee has concluded that this should be further reviewed. The spirit of the law - as concluded by said parliamentary committee - is service-by-service, not person-by-person.

The Labour Party has recently supported this in its election manifesto with regard to single sex exemptions.

Please don't come here and misrepresent the law or the direction of political travel. We're months ahead of you. Stonewall law is not the law, no matter how many "training sessions" it conducts pretending that it is.

LongLiveThePenis · 29/11/2019 09:17

Shouting transphobic doesn't work here, @GirlOnTheRoof. The FWR women aren't so easily brow beaten.

LangCleg · 29/11/2019 09:17

That said, your advocating for a family-centred holiday company to be required to allow naked and intact adult males into changing rooms with little girls is very much noted.

TiredofthisBS · 29/11/2019 09:17

Can you provide evidence of these transphobic statements please?

TiredofthisBS · 29/11/2019 09:19

Yeah, stamping your feet and shouting transphobia and bigots doesn't really get you anywhere on here. It might work in other places but not here.

Michelleoftheresistance · 29/11/2019 09:21

You're clearly not open to a discussion on how the law is applied in this case.

Read the thread. The discussion has happened. Why do you expect that you can turn up, reboot a zombie thread and demand that everyone has the same discussion over again with you personally because you can't be buggered to read? Bit arrogant to put it mildly.

And no, not believing that someone changes sex is not transphobic. I respect you believe it, but I don't. I don't have to enact your beliefs: it's called freedom of belief. Look it up. And then look at the Harry Miller/Maya Forstater court cases.

GirlOnTheRoof · 29/11/2019 09:31

See what I mean about a respectful discussion, all you're doing here is attacking me for having a different opinion. That's not respectful is it. You need to listen and try to understand the points that are being raised. If you can't do that, well there's no point in having a discussion because it will just descend into a tit for tat argument.

Michelleoftheresistance · 29/11/2019 09:35

So you really did just come here today for a fight.

No. Not playing, sorry.

TiredofthisBS · 29/11/2019 09:37

You've come on the this thread and so far you've used insulting language, made accusations of transphobia (which you can't back up), and posted things that have been refuted.

Sweetheart, you are not the first person to do this and I doubt you will be the last. I'm not engaging anymore. Have a lovely day, enjoy the winter sunshine.

GirlOnTheRoof · 29/11/2019 09:40

Read and learn...

Sch. 3, Para 28 Exceptions

Gender reassignment discrimination and separate and single-sex services

13.57
If a service provider provides single- or separate sex services for women and men, or provides services differently to women and men, they should treat transsexual people according to the gender role in which they present. However, the Act does permit the service provider to provide a different service or exclude a person from the service who is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or who has undergone gender reassignment. This will only be lawful where the exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate.

13.58
The intention is to ensure that the transsexual person is treated in a way that best meets their needs. Service providers need to be aware that transsexual people may need access to services relating to their birth sex which are otherwise provided only to people of that sex. For example, a transsexual man may need access to breast screening or gynaecological services. In order to protect the privacy of all users, it is recommended that the service provider should discuss with any transsexual service users the best way to enable them to have access to the service.

Example:
A clothes shop has separate changing areas for male and female customers to try on garments in cubicles. The shop concludes that it would not be appropriate or necessary to exclude a transsexual woman from the female changing room as privacy and decency of all users can be assured by the provision of separate cubicles.

13.59
Service providers should be aware that where a transsexual person is visually and for all practical purposes indistinguishable from a non-transsexual person of that gender, they should normally be treated according to their acquired gender, unless there are strong reasons to the contrary.

13.60
As stated at the beginning of this chapter, any exception to the prohibition of discrimination must be applied as restrictively as possible and the denial of a service to a transsexual person should only occur in exceptional circumstances. A service provider can have a policy on provision of the service to transsexual users but should apply this policy on a case-by-case basis in order to determine whether the exclusion of a transsexual person is proportionate in the individual circumstances. Service providers will need to balance the need of the transsexual person for the service and the detriment to them if they are denied access, against the needs of other service users and any detriment that may affect them if the transsexual person has access to the service. To do this will often require discussion with service users (maintaining confidentiality for the transsexual service user). Care should be taken in each case to avoid a decision based on ignorance or prejudice. Also, the provider will need to show that a less discriminatory way to achieve the objective was not available.

LongLiveThePenis · 29/11/2019 09:46

@GirlOnTheRoof, women disagreeing with you is not women insulting you. How lovely it must be to be so inexperienced in being insulted.
@TiredofthisBS it is lovely and sunny isn't it? I love crisp, frosty winter mornings much more than soggy ones and it seems we're finally headed back in that direction.