Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

[gcnotterf1]

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

You are afterall, asking for a major shift in public policy to move to a blanket ban on trans folk accessing spaces and facilities they have traditionally used on an honour basis.

What 'honour' basis? Who decided this? Did men talking amongst themselves decide which women's provisions they could take?

They were never mens to give away. In fact they are not even a single women's to give away.

Taken by stealth and deception and I guess this worm has turned.

If there are policies which don't comply with legislation then they should be changed, no matter how long they have been in place.

I do not believe that men who internally thought themselves feminine but presented as traditionally male in every way would have been welcomed into female toilets solely due to this internal belief, as a general rule, in the past.

This is (one of) the thing(s) that is being changed.

"Appeal to tradition" is a basic logical fallacy, fwiw

You are afterall, asking for a major shift in public policy to move to a blanket ban on trans folk accessing spaces and facilities they have traditionally used on an honour basis.

Huh? What public policy? Who said that TW could use female spaces? I have never been okay with this.

an honour basis

There is no honour in this.

I would have thought some training for CP staff on issue, and take it from there.
Perhaps they could put in their booking literature that toilet facilities are single sex and this should be respected, and that GN third space available.
Deal with any issues if they arise. Same as any other kind of anti-social behaviour they have to deal with from time to time. *yes I do consider male bodies using woman's toilets and changing areas anti-social behaviour.

I am very happy Centre Parks are doing this, and hope they stick to their guns.
Hope other companies see this and take note.

Sadly Centre Parks is too expensive for my family, so all-inclusive to Spain it is.

Last holiday (in Spain) there was a trans woman at the resort. Big, muscled, bald male bodied. Seemed nice enough, no issues. Despite the bikini, I would not have wanted to share toilet or changing room facilities. I am not going to be made to feel bad about this.

There are sex offenders who have undergone (reversible) chemical treatment for paraphilias in government-approved programmes. The treatment can have 'feminising' side effects (breast growth), and some offenders have gone on to transition, i.e. want to be 'treated as women' (which can also be a type of paraphilia). Are service providers like Center Parcs aware of this when they implement policies that allow males into women's spaces?

Sadly I thought that CP had done the right thing. Obviously not.

Depressingly regular occurance for companies to cave to such terrorism.
What can we do about this?

What can we do about this?

Bring harassment cases.

Transssexuals may have been in women’s spaces for decades — but what we used to call transvestites weren’t.

Now that particular population is included under Stonewall’s enormous umbrella, along with non-binary males and genderqueer males.

Objectively, however, it is impossible to know which male is what we used to call a transsexual and which males is what we used to call a transvestite.

But that either is male is usually quite obvious.

It is not women who created this problem we are now fighting. Stonewall created it with their overreaching umbrella.

The problem hasn’t been created by trans women, as we’re not asking for any change, you are.

////

Holy shit this is one of the most arrogant and entitled things I've ever read on MN

Or indeed stop calling 'recognition of sex' a form of harassment or a hate crime.

If someone is correctly identified as male and asked to leave, that isn't a hate crime; it's the whole bloody problem in the first place.

how do you ensure that the only people in the changing rooms are biological females?

By reinforcing the attitude that women are entitled to privacy, dignity and safety. And that women are entitled to say "No".

In order to do this, it must be recognised in law and in society that a woman is an adult, female human. That no matter what a man does to his name, his presentation or his body, he remains a man, and must therefore remain outside women's sex-segregated spaces.

By ensuring that women have the right to challenge anybody entering their spaces, without fear of being insulted. (The fear of being attacked is sufficient, thank you.)

There seems to be a feeling that women can/should only be concerned about male-bodied people who are going to do them harm, and that it is unreasonable to assume that a transwoman is there to do harm.

If I were to be in the CP spa changing area and see a male bodied person, transgender or otherwise, I wouldn’t assume they were going to do me harm. Because most men don’t and most transwomen don’t.

But I would still feel very uncomfortable being around a male-bodied person in that environment. I wouldn’t assume the person was evil and had nefarious intentions. I would just feel very uncomfortable and intensely vulnerable and the natural “radar” women have on when in a mixed sex environment would be on.

But I would still feel very uncomfortable being around a male-bodied person in that environment

Helen Staniland did some research on this and the vast majority of women feel the same
twitter.com/helenstaniland/status/1055128983803703297

And I would agree - if that was the norm, I just would not go.

I just wouldn’t take my clothes off in the presence of a male other than DH. I have a few close male friends I trust implicitly but I still wouldn’t. It’s about vulnerability, dignity and respect.

Privacy, dignity and respect are pretty basic needs when you are in a vulnerable situation.

You are afterall, asking for a major shift in public policy to move to a blanket ban on trans folk accessing spaces and facilities they have traditionally used on an honour basis.

According to the research that Melrose has posted, only 14% of people think that transwomen should have access to female spaces.

It's really not a very popular concept.

So I'm not sure where this 'major shift' is supposed to be coming from, Bronners?

Take a look at this thread which amplifies what can happen to women when they share spaces with strange men (and note that the company (Airbnb) refuses to allow a woman to protect herself because ..."inclusion" etc:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3806857-to-want-to-write-an-honest-review-of-this-air-bnb-guest

”Privacy, dignity and respect are pretty basic needs when you are in a vulnerable situation.”

Exactly. Those are fundamental things and it’s so sad that there are people who are willing to take those away from whole groups of other people.

TWs may have use women's spaces ' on an honour basis', but whose honour was it? Was every woman asked? Or did these TW assume that they were welcome because nobody challenged them? Are these male-bodied people aware that women mostly do not challenge them out of fear? Fear that the bigger, stronger, faster male body will harm them. What most women will have done when there was a TW in the women's loos is get out as quickly and unobtrusively as possible. And then, quite possibly, stand outside the toilets and warn other women that "there's a man in there", so that those women could make an informed choice whether they wished to be in that space with a man, rather than have it imposed upon them.

Common decency used to be enough to ensure women’s spaces were kept free of males. Most males still adhere to it as they are decent people and would hate to make women and girls feel uncomfortable in a state of undress.

I don't remember ever being asked if I was ok with TW coming in the loos. Who's honour was it, who gave the yes? Wasnt me, or my mum, or my gran. Should have asked properly. Would have been told NO

"how do you ensure that the only people in the changing rooms are biological females?"

Decent law abiding people of both sexes will follow the law.

If a trans women or man ignores the law and enters a woman's only space....they/he can be reported and removed by security/police and dealt with by the law. Until they/he learns to obey the law.

What you are suggesting is that some trans women or men are not willing to obey the law. In which case that is an issue between the police and the trans women or men, nothing to do with women.

We would be safer, as we can report a man on the bathroom and know that only women should be present.

We don't cancel laws because people break them, we punish people to try and prevent repetition of crimes.

I don't think trans women would continue to use our spaces if companies/government strengthened our rights to privacy and dignity. I have faith that the majority of trans women would do the right thing and follow the law.

An 'honour system' would be one where all male people behave honourably by staying the fuck out of female spaces.