Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

[gcnotterf1]

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

Transwomen who used female toilets and were not challenged were breaking the law.

Not quite. It's the service providers who are in breach of the EA by having policies which result in the harassment of women.

The whole "well we've been getting away with it for years" argument is loathsome. You think that means you should be allowed to continue violating women's boundaries indefinitely? Really? Because I can guarantee that it wasn't because nobody knew. They just didn't say anything, for various possible reasons including fear. Now we're starting to challenge that behavior. That is a good thing. Boundary violations should be challenged. "But I was able to do it before!" is wholly inadequate as a response, and is fueling women's anger about the whole situation.

Are you saying it isn’t illegal for a man to walk use a female public toilet and that he can’t be charged with anything but the owner of the toilet can?

It's going to take a while but I suspect that what will eventually come out of this is laws that do specifically prohibit male adults from entering women's spaces. Which if so will be the best example of "don't push your luck" in a long time.

”Are you saying that when transwomen understand that a situation has been created where many women feel unsafe, they'll still go ahead?”

Vicky Hodges is on this thread and yes that absolutely seems to be the intention.

It’s not that people like Vicky don’t realise they are making women and girls feel vulnerable and uncomfortable, it’s that they don’t care.

Yes, 5zeds. No offence has been committed by someone just using toilets intended for the opposite sex. As far as I know there is currently no legal requirement to even have single sex toilets outside of workplaces and schools.

Nevertheless, a service provider must not harass its customers and allowing male people to use female only facilities results in harassment.

I have had a placeholding email back from center parcs this morning. I'm quite pleased with that as it suggests it's being moved further up the chain of command, rather than just a quick "but we can't discriminate" from someone following the script in the contact centre.

Would just like to affirm that I was very polite in my call, the most the lady I spoke to got was a frustrated sigh or two.
I'll not be causing anyone trouble for being on the front line of this, but I will point out the wrongness of it.

The 1st photo is of the women's changing area in the spa at Woburn Forest CP. 2nd is of a non specified changing room on the CP website.

As you can clearly see, they are intended as spaces for women to get changed in full view of other guests. They are clearly also supposed to be relaxing to add to the calming and pampering experience.

Sharing that space with a male bodied person would be anything but calming and relaxing.

I simply don't believe that TW have been in female spaces for decades in any more than a few exceptional cases.

I think that most women easily spot males, even if they say nothing or choose to validate a TW's identity.

Still no answer on how you enforce a policy that includes trans men in women’s spaces whilst at the same time excludes trans women. (As the policy you advocate would exclude trans men from men’s spaces)

Can someone please tell me how you do that in a realistic practical way?

I don't believe it either, I've spent a lot of time in LGBT spaces and I can recognise a biological male.

Are we back to some people being unwilling to accept that most people can tell sex at a glance again?

And a biological female too, Everard. Tranmen can often "pass" much better than transwomen in photos, but in person not so much.

Bronners1978's questions are making it pretty clear that we can't expect all transwomen to just respect our right to single-sex spaces, anyway.

In terms of 'enforcing a policy' - society operates on the basis of consent. Decent people respect the law and other people's boundaries and comply because - that's just what good people do. They don't need checks - they just respect others.
Society always has a problem with selfish anti-social people who don't comply with the law or social conventions. Predators and those seeking to violate other's boundaries will always be a problem and that is when we need the law in support. It's a shame that so much attention and influence is currently being given to those determined to violate women's boundaries.

Still no answer on how you enforce a policy that includes trans men in women’s spaces whilst at the same time excludes trans women. (As the policy you advocate would exclude trans men from men’s spaces)

Whether or not men exclude transmen from men's spaces is up to them.

It is not up to women to create and enforce a policy. It is up to males, including TW, to stop using female spaces when they know that many women do not consent.

Well exactly. Why would it need to be 'enforced'? It never was before.

Spaces for women are separated by sex. Job done. Bronners seems to be saying that there are male born individuals who will ignore that in favour of violating women's boundaries and whatchya going to do about it?

And if our new friend didn't know that many women are deeply uncomfortable with male people entering our spaces, they do now. At which point a decent person who cares about other people's feelings and respects their boundaries would cease the boundary violating behavior.

Well, we know that ex-Stonewall Chief Exec Ruth Hunt's view is that 'men are always going to rape women' so it's not worth trying to stop them. Maybe that's the viewpoint we're dealing with here. Acceptance without exception = Men are always going to violate our boundaries so why bother trying to keep them out?

That "enforced" rubbish winds me up.

It doesn't need to be "enforced" and more than it was in the past. In the past, pretty much everytone stuck to single sex spaces. Some transexuals used the disabled loos. If someone obviously of the opposite sex entered the toilet/changing room/wheatever, there was a chorus of "wrong room" or a hurried, embarrassed withdrawal. We didn't need other rules or bouncers, fgs, society agreed to respect the boundaries.

The vast majority of assaults commited in these spaces have absolutely nothing to do with a trans person or a person claiming to be trans. The people behind that claim have since admitted it was a lie to try and undermine trans rights.

If you want to be very strict on segregation by sex, surely you must have a method to ensure that all service providers can do so.

And no, time and again you’ve proven that you cannot always tell, so please don’t use a subjective measure.

And no, time and again you’ve proven that you cannot always tell, so please don’t use a subjective measure.

Really? When was that, then?

Ok then you can tell 99% of the time. Those of us who have been repeatedly assaulted by men in particular. And men do not have to actually attack us to make us feel panicked and uncomfortable. Anyone who doesn't experience this shouldn't be overriding boundaries for those of us that do.

So for that 1% how do you objectively identify them and exclude them?