Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

[gcnotterf1]

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

I can’t help but notice, once again, how the burden of all of this falls only on women.

The spa staff? I imagine mostly women.

The call centre staff who have to toe the line or lose their jobs? In flipping’s example, a woman.

Who is booking the family holidays and being faced with the responsibility of deciding if this changes their feelings about CP? Mostly women.

Whose changing rooms are now not single sex? Women.

Meantime, men exit stage left, whistling, their lives unaffected, their changing rooms still single sex.

All this is SO FUCKING SEXIST I could scream for a year.

Trans men will use the men’s changing rooms.

I note you’ve not answered my question, when was the last time any of you were asked for a birth certificate when booking a holiday?

As I said it’s the only thing you actually get from the GRA process.

You’re missing the point, bronners

This is effectively self-ID by the back door. The provisions of the equality act are being ignored, because trans women are being treated as if their comparator group was women, not men, regardless of whether they have the GRC that was intended to be the differentiator.

Don’t you get that? In the current climate, No one can ask for proof of a GRC, because of the furore that would cause, so the Centre Parcs solution is to bring in mixed sex provision. It’s not what most women want.

What's that relevant to Bronner? I'm not sure why you're asking. People can be excluded from a changing room with or without a GRC if only organisations applied the law correctly.

There seems to be misinformation being passed on to front line staff by management everywhere.

The CP response is pretty much in line with what I was told by my local M&S lingerie staff - they are obliged to let a man in to the lingerie changing room if he is 'dressed as a woman' otherwise it would be 'discriminatory'.

It was obvious the assistant agreed with me, but her hands were tied by the store policy, and yes, she wanted to keep her job.

To be honest, they've probably decided, in terms of PR, the potential furore caused by an aggressive TRA being refused entry is far worse than some women politely moaning at them and withholding custom. The first scenario would be all over Twitter and the papers; the second can be safely ignored.

We need clarification from the top; I'm waiting to see who the next Woman's minister is after the imminent reshuffle.

The point is, and always has been, that the birth certificate has never been relevant (indeed it actually states on the certificate it should not be used as proof of identity).

The trans community have always been able to change other common forms of ID and much more easily, such as driving licenses and passports.

Self ID, as you frame it, has been the norm for decades in the UK.

Self ID, as you frame it, has been the norm for decades in the UK.

It hasn't been the norm though that increasing numbers of male-bodied people, including those who do very little to pass, insist on their right to be in female-only space, and that women now feel too scared to challenge even obvious men for fear of being labelled transphobic.

Yes it has, between the April Ashley case in the 70s through to 2004, trans people were unable to obtain legal recognition and amend our birth certificates.

In effect anyone who transitioned in that period was self ID.

As legislation introduced since 2004 has reduced the specific benefits of the certificate (harmonisation of pension age, same sex marriage etc.), the benefits of obtaining a GRC are now limited to registration of a marriage or civil partnership and death.

For all practical day to day activities a driving license or other, similar photo ID would serve as identification and has been common practice for an awful long time.

No it hasn't been "the norm". A tiny minority of individuals.

I have been using gyms and spas with open plan changing rooms for 30 years, and it has definitely not been the norm to have male-bodied people in them. Whatever the legal framework, and we understand what that is here in FWR, this is a social movement designed to legitimise and increase males' rights to what females have fought for for decades and centuries to be female-only safe(r) space.

YY Everard. And a minority of males delight in making women scared, humiliated and uncomfortable. That part is not exactly news.

But it is abusive behaviour. And not taking steps to protect women from this could possibly constitute sexual harassment under the EA on the part of the service provider. As we already generally expect single sex facilities when we are vulnerable, we expect them not to actually be mixed sex without being informed of this beforehand so we can go elsewhere.

But when activists argue against the spousal exit clause, the birth certificate is very important?

The minority of men I refer to is a minority of the male sex in general, not any specific group of males. Unfortunately we don't always have a crystal ball to know which ones they are. Though deliberate boundary violation is a well known red flag.

It's not 'the norm'. It's not the norm that, for instance, a woman at a University changing room sees a man and his female friend come into the changing room where she is disrobing, and she is too frightened to challenge him.

Do you genuinely believe that trans women only recently started using female toilets, were joining female gym classes, placed on female wards and so on?

If you want to change things to completely exclude trans women from all of those how do you realistically expect to police it? I’ve often seen you talk about sex segregated spaces that include trans men in them, and exclude trans women. But no one has ever stated exactly how that would work in practice.

Indeed. Nor is it the norm for male people to insist on entering women's spaces even when they are fully aware that this will distress at least some of the women. Most male people who I know would not do this. When someone does it tells us something about who they are, and not in a "gender" way.

Ah the old 'we've been moving among you unnoticed for years argument'.

Yes I have seen transwomen in women's toilets. But in my communal changing room at the gym? No. It's a women only space.

Most male people who I know would not do this. When someone does it tells us something about who they are, and not in a "gender" way.

Indeed.

I refuse to pretend that none of my senses work in order to prop up someone else's fragile sense of self.

If you want to change things to completely exclude trans women from all of those how do you realistically expect to police it?

Why should we police it? Are you saying that when transwomen understand that a situation has been created where many women feel unsafe, they'll still go ahead?

These people born male entering our spaces have zero respect for females whatsoever and I don't think any of them should be in female spaces. The sheer irony and entitlement of a male claiming to be female and not giving a damn about how people born female feel about their presence in our spaces. SMDH.

In the past, laws, policies and practices have been slipped through quietly and under the radar. Women were never consulted.

In 2004 we were told there were approximately 5000 trans people in the UK. In 2018, in the GRA consultation document, we were told there are approx 500,000. That's a 10,000% increase in just 14 years.

Of course we started noticing what's going on.

Those 'under the radar' tactics won't work any more. There are too many of us watching. Too many of us saying 'no, we don't consent'.

It doesn't matter if harassment has become increasingly commonplace. It's still prohibited conduct.

If you want to change things to completely exclude trans women there is no “change” men are excluded from female spaces, women from men’s. Transwomen who used female toilets and were not challenged were breaking the law. I don’t want men in the changing rooms with my daughters. I know you cannot change sex, it is fact. I also know how to be polite. It doesn’t mean I have to accept any old shit from anyone.

But when activists argue against the spousal exit clause, the birth certificate is very important?

Yes, it's very odd. A GRC makes no difference to anything anyway but also we must urgently reform the GRA so that nothing stands in the way of anybody getting a GRC who wants one, as swiftly as possible.