Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

[gcnotterf1]

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

How many times, the GRC only allows a trans person to change their birth certificate, nothing else.

The GRC gives different rights under the Equality Act, although people with a GRC can still be excluded from single sex spaces in certain cases.

Well done center parcs. Am booking with you this year.

I'm aware I'm probably likely to be exiting Mumsnet tonight for the following posts.

I have held back on so many images, links, that highlight in stark reality who this ideology is benefitting, when organisations say 'yes' to the umbrella of trans.

But kind, kind women of Mumsnet who support 'trans rights', and who criticise the women in FWR who are challenging this ideology.

It's these people who you are all talking about. Not a glamorous Jazz Jennings. Not a stunning and brave Munroe Bergdorf.

But the following people (who I agree are vulnerable and need support and care, but not at the expense of sex-based spaces or women's needs, a different kind of support and care for male bodied people)

You’re right about what legal recognition means, but the only tangible bit. The thing you come away with is a birth certificate.

When was the last time any of you were asked for it when booking a holiday?

We need to think about the pressures that front line service staff are under, in all fields. Probably lots of people reading this are in exactly this position.

Yes, you're right.

Pom, you’re absolutely right and you’ve done a brave thing. If they do throw you off, I’m glad to have known you and MN will be ever richer for the tale of the Family Tuna.

Well done Flipping!

Thanks Pombear a picture speaks a thousand words!

I would not want my daughter or myself changing with males and it is our legal right to not have to. Indecent exposure is actually still a crime, young girls in particular should not be exposed to naked males.

CP know the law as in October they were sticking to it. I hope their profits suffer as families decide not to go there, I certainly won't go there with my family.

Vicky has indeed admitted that Vicky is Girlontheroof - and Vicky is easily googleable - which brings up Vicky's twitter, blog etc - so I don't see why it should be a breach of guidelines to post that, Pombears

It's not clear at all whether a GRC makes a difference or not to our rights under the EA.

I've read some good analyses from proper lawyers who say that tw with the PC of gender reassignment, but who do not have a grc, must not be discriminated against compared with any other male people. So the everyday single sex exceptions (Schedule 3, part 7, paras 26-27), that allow us to have separate male and female facilities in the first place, are sufficient to exclude these male people. And that therefore the sole purpose of para 28 is to also exclude male people with a GRC who are legally female.

This exception applies to the specific circumstances where harassment is a likely consequence of not using it:

(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;
(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;
(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

And harassment does not require a comparator anyway, so the whole thing is as clear as mud.

We're dealing with two poorly drafted pieces of law that interact with each other and there is no relevant case law. If EHRC were doing the job we all pay them for then they'd have brought cases to clarify this area of the EA, ideally on behalf of women.

Thank you Pombear.

Very useful info PomBear.

this forum with words doesn't do justice to the reality

Yup.

FlippingBirds that was worse then expected!
Thanks for all your time and effort to make it available, and I’m impressed at how you kept your cool.

Much appreciated.

I feel sorry for the front line staff like the ones in that interesting transcription. Even if they 100% agree that a penis person shouldn’t be in that changing room, they have to recite the given script or get in the shit themselves and risk their job. It’s horrible.

I am really disappointed, I had hoped that this Vicky character was just on the wind up. I also love CP, but will boycott sadly. They are really shooting themselves in the foot here, I can’t understand companies showing such contempt for their core customers.

LangClegsInSpace upthread, excellent post, quote:
"We need to think about the pressures that front line service staff are under, in all fields. Probably lots of people reading this are in exactly this position."

RightEarlobeBreath:
"I feel sorry for the front line staff like the ones in that interesting transcription. Even if they 100% agree that a penis person shouldn’t be in that changing room, they have to recite the given script or get in the shit themselves and risk their job. It’s horrible."

Sounds and smells very much like compelled speech. It's a travesty.

This is another example of using people, who have no connection at all with the ideology, as an inadvertent proxy for coercive control.

And that therefore the sole purpose of para 28 is to also exclude male people with a GRC who are legally female.

That would make sense in practice, since it's possible to get a GRC without committing to any physical changes.

This exception applies to the specific circumstances where harassment is a likely consequence of not using it:

(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;
(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;
(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

And how could the likelihood of harassment depend on the existence of a piece of paper which doesn't say anything about the person's actual sex characteristics? If a male who is obviously a male is allowed into a women's space, the effect is the same whether or not he has a GRC.

This is another example of using people, who have no connection at all with the ideology, as an inadvertent proxy for coercive control.

Yes, precisely.

If a male who is obviously a male is allowed into a women's space, the effect is the same whether or not he has a GRC.

Yes.

Unwilling and coerced compliance is the opposite of validation