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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?

999 replies

gcnotterf1 · 30/10/2019 14:51

www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/30/center-parcs-trans-woman-changing-rooms-equalities-act-victoria-hodges/

OP posts:
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12
VivaLeBeaver · 26/01/2020 14:28

I think CP is going downhill!🙈

Center Parcs upholding single sex spaces?
Catsfriend · 26/01/2020 14:34

What’s with all the deletions on this thread?

FlippingBirds · 26/01/2020 14:38

Having a really-listen.....women will use the first aid room if they don't want to share with men! Nice. Bet there are no showers in the first aid room. Or fresh towels, or robes. Wtf kind of spa day is that!?

FlippingBirds · 26/01/2020 14:39

*re-listen

5zeds · 26/01/2020 14:47

The first aide room??? Hmm. Isn’t it going to be a bit small to repurpose as a female changing room?

5zeds · 26/01/2020 14:49

Are they going to tell women this BEFORE they start changing or are you expected to withdraw to the first aide room while you change?

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 26/01/2020 14:49

How does that work in real life?

You’ve used the spa, come out, your wet and wrapped in a towel, you get your clothes from a locker and turn around to head to the bench and as you turn you see someone who is male, or someone you perceive to be male.

Do you:
A) attempt to walk out of the changing rooms, dripping wet, wrapped in a towel, carrying all your stuff in a haphazard pile in order to find a staff member who can show you to a changing room that is only accessible to female people (and if there is an injured person in the first aid room stand outside in your towel waiting)?

B) lock yourself into a toilet cubicle and sit there with your stuff on your lap waiting for this person to leave (for absolutely ages, so that you don’t come out of the loo to find them still there, and have to go back inside again

C) text your friend/partner from the loo to ask them to get the staff to come in and supervise as you feel unsafe (and risk being arrested/reeducated for hate crime).

D) put your clothes on over your costume in the open plan change area, while silently vowing never to return to Centre Parcs again?

A) seems the least likely to me...

LangClegsInSpace · 26/01/2020 14:50

Got the whole, depressing speech about the women being removed if they weren't comfortable

Victimisation in the EA is subjecting someone to a detriment because they do something in relation to the EA, or because you believe they have done or will do something in relation to the EA. These are called protected acts.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/27

The protected act(s) in this case are complaining of harassment and/or requesting that the service provider use a single sex exception. It doesn't have to be expressly stated - it doesn't make a difference whether the woman says 'this is harassment' or whether she says 'I don't feel comfortable'. It doesn't make a difference whether she says 'please use a single sex exception' or whether she says 'I don't want to get changed with tw'.

The detriment in this case is removing the woman who complains.

Victimisation is prohibited conduct.

5zeds · 26/01/2020 14:54

What will happen is women will stop going to spas, gyms, swimming pools, sports clubs.

LangClegsInSpace · 26/01/2020 15:01

women will use the first aid room if they don't want to share with men!

What if there is an accident or medical emergency and they cannot access the first aid room because someone is changing in there? People tend to go to CP in groups so there might be quite a few women and girls changing in there (how big is this first aid room anyway?)

From a HSE First Aid document:

It is important to remember that accidents and illness can happen at any time. Provision for first aid needs to be available at all times people are at work.

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg214.pdf

They bolded that bit.

GirlDownUnder · 26/01/2020 15:17

I'm looking into how to edit it as they asked my name at one point..then I'll post it.

How's this going? I think it would be a vitally important piece of evidence re going against current laws, and guidelines.

I'm surprised that they've said they'd move women to the first aid room. This seems a bit 'othering' of women and men somehow.
But also (because of all the reasons already stated, and that) the first aid room isn't single sex. So a) hope no one needing aid is using it b) hope there's no man in there getting changed because there's a transman in the mens.

I know this might be unlikely, but I'm thinking about safeguarding for adults, but more importantly, children.

Hope you're close to being able to post the audio! Brew

ThePurported · 26/01/2020 15:25

It is important to remember that accidents and illness can happen at any time. Provision for first aid needs to be available at all times people are at work.

If something happens, no doubt women will get the blame.
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to put the dysphoric males in the first aid room? It would discourage fetishist chancers who just want to get their cock out or prance around in their M&S frippery in front of semi naked women.

FlippingBirds · 26/01/2020 15:33

girldownunder, I'm having to play it on one device from after my name, onto another device with editing capabilities....and my kids won't stop barging in!! Will try again. Not sure how to put it here either 😰

GirlDownUnder · 26/01/2020 15:36

Not sure how to put it here either

Oh yeah, I hadn't even thought of that! I've only ever posted pics, or links.

Any techies know?!?

I can't help with the kids either, sorry Wine

I can offer Brew

5zeds · 26/01/2020 15:41

I’m going to have to call them and ask where there are single sex facilities at CP, because otherwise I’m not sure how we are going to juggle everything. Why do these people want to walk through the changing room to get changed anyway? Surely if they need privacy they could be accommodated anywhere?

ThePurported · 26/01/2020 15:45

You could use Soundcloud Birds. Take your time, we'll still be here next week...

LangClegsInSpace · 26/01/2020 15:50

Is it on your phone? Can you email the audio file to yourself then open it on the other device?

starlingsintheslipstream · 26/01/2020 15:59

Could you just write out a transcript, FlippingBirds? Likely be less outing for you, in any case.
Would be really interested in the exchange with them. Thanks for doing this.

EverardDigby · 26/01/2020 16:06

I specifically took 15 yo DD to the Centre Parcs spa because it's one of the few places that accepts 15 year olds. She's sensitive enough about changing anyway in an open area even with just women. I've experienced around 25 years of male abuse as a child and an adult so I'm well conditioned to feel panicky around men when in a vulnerable situation so visiting there again is a big no from me.

FlippingBirds · 26/01/2020 16:06

I might transcribe it, I sound like an insufferable snob 😅

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 26/01/2020 16:35

Make sure you save the recording as evidence if you get the “we never said that” bullshite from them.

FlippingBirds · 26/01/2020 17:15

I've saved it. Got it typed up, just getting husband to check it. Saw him shaking his head a lot reading it, could be my spelling though 😅

GirlDownUnder · 26/01/2020 17:18

I've saved it. Got it typed up...

Cheers Flipping

It's well past late here, so I'll hopefully read tomorrow. WineWine for you and DH!

FlippingBirds · 26/01/2020 17:23

Me: Im calling to find out about your AquaSana single sex changing room policy, cos its being said online that males are being allwed into the female changing village and I want to know whats happening if that’s ok.

CP: We don’t allow that to be honest

Me: Yes, if the people, if they claim to be a transwoman they are being allowed in, theres a person saying they’ve been allowed into the AquaSana changing...open plan changing room despite being born…..

CP: I do know that with transgender guests they are allowed to go into whichever changing room which fits the gender that they are.

Me: So that is allowed.

CP: If there is someone who is transgender and you don’t want to get changed with them, we have separate changing rooms available that are normally used for first aid or for disabled guests, but they will let you use that if you don’t want to be in there.

Me: So the female is made to leave if they are not comfortable with a male?

CP: No. No. There is the option on there to use that if you are unhappy with the changing rooms, but unfortunately we cant….there isn’t an option on there for discrimination, if someone on there says they are female, they are allowed to use the female changing rooms.

Me: What do they have to prove….what do they have to show you to say they are female? Or do they just have to say it?

CP: If people have their full proof that they are female.

Me: So, a gender recognition certificate?

CP: I diddnt know there was such a thing.

Me. Yeah….yeah….so, youre saying that if im uncomfortable with their being a man in the changing room, the man will be removed, not me.

CP: If you are unhappy with there being a female transgender in the changing rooms, there are rooms that you can go into on there to make you more comfortable to get changed in there

Me: So Id be moved.

CP: If you are uncomfortable in the main changing room then they would make it so you would be comfortable so you would be moved, they would give you the option to move into the other room, where the person who is making you uncomfortable would not be in.

Me: So you are saying that male bodied people with the right paperwork are allowed in the open plan, Aquasana female changing room?

CP: What im saying is Ladies who are transgender to female, if they want to use the female changing rooms, we cannot discriminate against them and say no. Its illegal

Me: How are you deciding if they are properly…if they are female? Or if they are men just saying they are female?

CP: We would discuss that individually with the guest on there…..but we wouldn’t..

Me: You know, this is quite worrying, because…you know..

CP: By law it is illegal for us to discriminate against transgender guests.

Me: Actually, its not, because the equalitities act says you are allowed to discriminate for single sex spaces, so, youre actually able to keep them female changing areas, theres not been any change in the law regarding this. You are allowed to discriminate

CP: In regard to discrimination in the villages they wont discriminate against that..

Me: You are allowed to….

CP: However they will give you the opportunity to, if you are unhappy, if there is a transgender guest in the changing room we will open up a safe space for you.

Me: What if theres more than one person whos unhappy with it? What if all the women don’t want a man in there with them? Are all the woman going to be made to walk out of their changing room?

CP: Well, that will be dealt with by the village if that occasion ever occurs. They will make their decision there in the (cant hear)

Me: But, I just want you to know that you aren’t breaking the law by not letting men in, you are allowed to discriminate for single sex female spaces.

CP: If there is a trasgender lady, on there, they are allowed to go into the female…

Me: What qualifies them as official transgender and a lady in Center Parcs’ books? What is the paperwork they need?

CP: There isn’t paperwork like that required.

Me: Yes there is, its called a gender recognition certificate. So youre saying you allow people to self identify as men, or women?

CP: If there is someone who is transgender whether male to female or female to male they will be allowed to use….

Me: How are you deciding that they are actually..

CP: That will be that person just did it.

Me: So if they look, if they’ve grown….if they are wearing a wig. If they are wearing a wig anf they wander in, they will be allowed to stay in the womens changing room. Im worried that you don’t understand about the paperwork involved here, I feel like you don’t actually

CP: The Spa will go through any changing, any questioning reqired and make that decision there, it will be decided case by case on people going in but we will not discriminate against transgender or normal people either.

Me: Youre allowed to. Youre allowed to keep single sex spaces, that still perfectly legal.

CP: If there is somebody who is transgender to female, they are female.

Me: Shock (The conversation just goes into me asking for a higher-up, and being told to email, and I ask for her name)

FlippingBirds · 26/01/2020 17:23

DM me for a copy if the above gets deleted.