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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

'what about the men' -any tips for how to respond?

197 replies

Interestedwoman · 26/10/2019 10:33

I hope I'm posting this in the right place. Either way, please be gentle with me :)

I have a male friend, and often if I say stuff about women's experience or feminism, he'll say 'women can be controlling to men, too' or 'that happens to men as well' etc lines.

In part of a discussion of whether there were any political outcomes it was worth losing friends for, and whether we cared about any goal enough that if we knew it would lose us all our friends we would still rub the lamp and have a genie make it come true (this was at my instigation as friends are very important to me, I have a complex about it.) I said :-

'I suppose if it was 'end all violence against women on this earth' I'd probably still go for it.'

He said (yep you guessed it) 'End all violence against people on this earth, surely?'

Any tips on how to respond to stuff like this? (I still want to keep him as a friend.)

It strikes me as being a bit like when in response to 'Black Lives Matter,' someone says 'All lives matter.'

OP posts:
MotherForkinShirtBalls · 26/10/2019 10:45

I'd probably remind him that most violence against men is perpetrated by other men and ask what he's doing to end that.

HorseWithNoFucksToGive · 26/10/2019 10:46

What your friend is doing has a name:

Whataboutery.

Sexnotgender · 26/10/2019 10:55

I’d respond with, yes I know... what are you doing about it?

Ringdonna · 26/10/2019 11:30

All violence is wrong regardless of the perpetrator, end of.

JurgenKloppsCat · 26/10/2019 11:37

If you had that genie, which option would you vote for?

Inebriati · 26/10/2019 11:39

Why discuss it with him? He's made it clear he isn't interested in talking about it so why trust him with your thoughts or feelings on the subject? Leave him with his head stuck in the sand where he's happy.

Nightmanagerfan · 26/10/2019 11:43

This is an excellent article/blog on whataboutery

Nightmanagerfan · 26/10/2019 11:43

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/amp/

Sorry couldn’t post the link above for some reason!

aliasundercover · 26/10/2019 11:47

It’s two different situations.

In the practical real life world we do what we can, and prioritise the things that need doing most. In this case you are correct, lets stop the violence against women and then move on to the next stage.

In the ‘genie’ situation i actually think your friend is right - why would you ask the genie to end violence against women whe you could simply ask it to end all violence?

So - in theoretical, lets pretend world your friend is correct. In the world we live in where we cannot achieve everything you are correct.

BarbaraStrozzi · 26/10/2019 11:48

Keep pointing out that if we want to fix a problem, understanding the patterns underlying it matter. In the UK statistically 90% of violence against the person and 99% of sexual violence is committed by men.

sashh · 26/10/2019 11:50

So what about it? What about men? Why do you think nothing is being done about it? How much does it impact on your life? What abut your work life? Your coworkers?

Why do you think no one is doing anything about that?

BarbaraStrozzi · 26/10/2019 11:52

Thanks for the link to Jessica Eaton's article night. I've read it before but it deserves a second reading. It's bloody brilliant.

MangoSalsa · 26/10/2019 11:54

I really think the thing about this is that most violence against men is perpetrated by men.

If, for example, men like your friend understood that they are more likely to get raped by another man than falsely accused of rape by a woman it would open some minds. www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-men-are-more-likely-to-be-raped-than-be-falsely-accused-of-rape

So reducing male violence is the solution to reducing the number of men who get killed/raped/assaulted as well as the solution to reducing the number of women who suffer murder/rape/assault.

Elodie2019 · 26/10/2019 11:59

I agree with him. ''End all violence against people on this earth'' and 'All lives matter'* How can you disagree with those two statements?

coatlessinspokane · 26/10/2019 12:06

I know how you feel OP, I get this a lot too.

My answer would be to have your stats ready, and then say something like this:

Of course we should end violence against everybody, but when you fail to recognise the gendered nature of violence, you can't locate the gendered causes of that violence and so you can never hope to fix it.

For example, (examples are always good) with honour based violence in Pakistan and India, women and girls are killed because they've transgressed the sexual restrictions that are put on them but not their brothers. This has a gendered cause: the belief that women not men should be sexually pure. And until you examine the source of that gendered belief you're never going to fix the problem.

AutumnRose1 · 26/10/2019 12:09

agree with pp

when he says about violence against men, point out that men are mostly the perpetrators and ask what he thinks about that and how it can be tackled.

He will probably start whataboutery then but I would suggest ditching him as a friend then!

coatlessinspokane · 26/10/2019 12:22

Why discuss it with him? He's made it clear he isn't interested in talking about it so why trust him with your thoughts or feelings on the subject? Leave him with his head stuck in the sand where he's happy.

Or that!

Does anyone else go round in this constant back and forth between two mental states?
Sometimes I'm optimistic, thinking I can change their minds if I could just make them see that I don't hate them. If only I could explain it nicely in a way that doesn't upset them. Then after banging my head against a brick wall I come to the conclusion that Fuck it! There's nothing I can do or say, they're always going to see it that way, because that's what they WANT to see and go back to leaving him with their heads in the sand.

Back and forth I go. Optimism and despair!

For my own mental health I try to surround myself with brilliant women, the few men that get it (which in these polarised times are getting fewer and fewer) but that's not going to help because only men can end VAWG. The type of men who commit violence against women don't listen to women, they only listen to other men, and only heteronormative men at that.

Maybe I'm a new kind of feminist: a fatalist feminist!

coatlessinspokane · 26/10/2019 12:26

I agree with him. ''End all violence against people on this earth'' and 'All lives matter'

How can you disagree with those two statements?

I don't think she does. I mean seriously, do you really think that she doesn't care about violence against boys and men?

Why do you think she prefers to focus on women and girls, just off the top of your head?

Inebriati · 26/10/2019 12:28

I think of myself as pragmatic rather than fatalist.
On another thread, OP says this friend is a therapist...Confused

Floisme · 26/10/2019 12:31

I agree with that statement too. But let's imagine we lived in a world with no genies, and that it was your job to get violent people to change their behaviour. Which sex would you focus on?

AutumnRose1 · 26/10/2019 12:38

coatless "If only I could explain it nicely in a way that doesn't upset them."

or don't worry about that. My late father stopped ever talking to me about this kind of thing after a fair bit of "whataboutery". It was mostly because mum and I stopped pussyfooting around and when he made comments about "this type of person who does terrible violent things" we'd just chorus "the word you're looking for is MEN".

After a few incidents of that, and him looking quite upset, he stopped using the word "person". I stopped talking about it altogether, but after he died my mum told me that he had gotten the message that it was necessary to admit which sex was responsible for the violent acts he moaned about.

I cba to NAMALT anymore. It goes without saying and there's something about it that seems like an apology, which I'm not going to be part of.

Numptydumptycat · 26/10/2019 12:40

Yes I like the line in that blog that “social issues are not equal” and they need to be dealt with on a case by case base as individual issues.

BingPot99 · 26/10/2019 12:50

In the Genie situation he may be right, but in the real world, my response would be something like "most people when asked what social issue worries them the most will say something which they have a personal concern about (eg someone who grew up in poverty is more likely to support homeless charities than someone from a wealthy family) . As a woman, violence against women concerns me alot given it is something which could potentially affect me some day so I want to do something about it. If violence against men worries you so much, you can try to do something about it. "

NailsNeedDoing · 26/10/2019 12:59

He has a valid point, maybe try listening to him instead of trying to shut him down.

As has been pointed out, most violence comes from men, so to make any difference to violence against women, we need men onside, they are where the change will happen. If we want men to give a shit about the human suffering experienced by women, then we need them not to feel like women don't give a shit about the human suffering experienced by men.

OneTerrificMouse · 26/10/2019 13:01

Thanks for the link to Jessica Eaton's article night. I've read it before but it deserves a second reading. It's bloody brilliant.

It is. And it is Dr Eaton's birthday today. Love that woman.

End all violence against people on this earth, surely?'

The biggest epidemic on this planet is male violence. In so many ways.

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