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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'what about the men' -any tips for how to respond?

197 replies

Interestedwoman · 26/10/2019 10:33

I hope I'm posting this in the right place. Either way, please be gentle with me :)

I have a male friend, and often if I say stuff about women's experience or feminism, he'll say 'women can be controlling to men, too' or 'that happens to men as well' etc lines.

In part of a discussion of whether there were any political outcomes it was worth losing friends for, and whether we cared about any goal enough that if we knew it would lose us all our friends we would still rub the lamp and have a genie make it come true (this was at my instigation as friends are very important to me, I have a complex about it.) I said :-

'I suppose if it was 'end all violence against women on this earth' I'd probably still go for it.'

He said (yep you guessed it) 'End all violence against people on this earth, surely?'

Any tips on how to respond to stuff like this? (I still want to keep him as a friend.)

It strikes me as being a bit like when in response to 'Black Lives Matter,' someone says 'All lives matter.'

OP posts:
Elodie2019 · 29/10/2019 08:13

Buzz: No, I'm not goading . I agree with the two statements. Sorry if it offends you....She replied, even more goadily.

I don't agree with the OP & you see that as goading?
Isn't anyone allowed to have a different opinion (as you say yourself just a few posts ago)?

NellieEllie · 29/10/2019 08:14

Also this

'what about the men'  -any tips for how to respond?
thirdfiddle · 29/10/2019 08:48

I think the correct answer is "Well we could generalise more and just wish eternal happiness to all conscious beings, human animal or alien - but it's a more interesting discussion if we focus on a particular issue we're concerned about. Yours can be violence against men if you like?"

Rockluvvindad · 29/10/2019 09:01

@OneTerrificMouse
Any man purporting to be the Good Guy and that we should Listen to Them, is usually not a Good Guy. And it makes me suspicious of their end game.
I'm sorry, but anyone coming out with such a blanket statement like that makes me suspicious of their motives too, so we're at an impasse there. It's the feminist equivalent of calling someone a Nazi and is used to shut down debate.

Where did I say NAMALT ? In fact, I agreed that the majority of sexual assault and physical assault is committed by men... I am simply saying that you can focus on both, not one group to the detriment of the other. This is the problem with intersectionality pitting groups against each other. To illustrate my point... Two real world examples of how this spreads division and mistrust, the Trans lobby vs TERF or Muslim parents in Birmingham who disagree with the curriculum covering same sex relationships, gender etc... in primary school. In each case, each side considers they are "right" and therefore the other side must be wrong.

This attitude about the OP's question is an example of the same thing. You are not one of us so you must be against us. It is madness.

I also pointed out that attempts by men to create similar advocacy groups are met by derision and hostility, mostly from SOME feminists. I believe in equality for all, not for specific groups.

@BarbaraStrozzi That's a good analogy. I like it. But in a real world example, let's say breast cancer is the first disease, and then lets say that testicular cancer is the second. Women's advocacy groups have done wonders to raise awareness and levels of research and as a result treatments are better than ever and survival rates increasing. Testicular cancer is reduced to a couple of leaflets in the doctor's surgery about rugby players checking their balls. Do we only focus on breast cancer and leave men to die ? Of course not, and that's why the OP's partner was correct. Do men think that Race for life is pointless ? Of course not. When I went to my local race this year there were almost as many men running as women. Where are the women growing moustaches in November ? ( sorry, that comment was tongue in cheek ! )

What I am trying to say is that Life doesn't have to be men vs women. It should be about us all working together to make things better. The constant derision of men by SOME groups from low level digs like this to trying to prevent organised meetings of advocacy groups is pitting men against women and turning back progress made in recent decades. I completely understand that Feminism is about advocacy for women and thus focusses on women's issues, but to fail to give any consideration ( note I said "consideration"... I don't mean that I would expect feminism to champion men's causes, only acknowledge that men do have issues which need advocacy ) to the issues faced by the other 50% of the population means that the movement is in danger of creating a "matriarchy" in the place of the "patriarchy".

There are still many challenges facing women today which as I have daughters I am very aware of, but what I hope for them is that they inherit a world where identity politics and intersectionality has been burnt at the stake so they can truly be equal and make life choices which are theirs and not the result of societal or identitarian pressures.

Dervel · 29/10/2019 09:59

Are men as a class responsible for most violent acts? Without question yes. Are all men violent? Of course not.

What is the solution? Not entirely sure, and I’m not confident any human culture has cracked that one so far. I mean I’m the father of a little boy and on a personal level I encourage my son to be empathic, and cognisant of being careful of things smaller than him (animals and such at this point as he’s still of an age where boys/girls are pretty much physically the same). I make sure he seeks consent in terms of whom he plays with and how. Though I do worry at some stage the influence of his peers will eclipse mine, as indeed naturally occurs at some stage in child development.

I’m not really in the business of policing the language people use. If you want to focus on vawg or just call it general violence we’re still talking about the same thing ultimately. I’m keen to engage in the topic either way the status quo worries me greatly.

If you want my two penneth (and yes I know it’s unasked for), I think the root lies in childhood abuse. I think spanking and corporal punishment which is more likely to be meted out to little boys relative to girls, coupled with the fact that men grow up to be that little bit bigger/stronger is what creates the environment we are observing. It teaches little boys that when you are bigger and stronger you can use violence to control those smaller and weaker than yourself (be they other men or women).

Not sure if it’s relevant but I recall rough-housing with my little sister, and my mother pulling me to one side and explaining that I will likely grow up to be bigger and stronger than most girls, and thus should take care never to harm anyone. Seemed simple and easy to understand and stuck with me.

I must confess I don’t feel particularly personally responsible for other men’s violence, but perhaps I am wrong in that.

Oldermum156 · 29/10/2019 10:01

I usually just try to not have male friends and that fixes it.

He clearly hates the idea of women's rights and sounds like an incel, just a passive aggressive one. He isn't your friend.

Dervel · 29/10/2019 10:02

@Rockluvvindad which do you think is the bigger problem: Male violence or how feminists discuss and frame Male violence?

Genuine question, I’m not trying to piss you off.

ShesDressedInBlackAgain · 29/10/2019 10:08

I completely understand that Feminism is about advocacy for women and thus focusses on women's issues, but to fail to give any consideration...to the issues faced by the other 50% of the population means that the movement is in danger of creating a "matriarchy" in the place of the "patriarchy".

You do know where you're posting, right? Hmm

If there was ever a physical demonstration of whataboutery it's this shit on the fucking Feminism board of Mumsnet.

Rockluvvindad · 29/10/2019 10:16

@Dervel I completely believe that if men didn't commit so much violence then there would be less of a need for women to discuss it... I agree wholeheartedly that men commit the majority of assault ( physical or sexual ). I've been the victim of assault by other men on a couple of occasions, and it can be life changing. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, male or female. I wish I knew the answers but like the rest of the world, I don't...

Testosterone does affect men in ways that even discipline, upbringing and "civilising" cannot entirely eliminate. That said, there is a growing body of evidence that female on female violence is increasing... Maybe alcohol is at work here or maybe society has become a free for all where "my rights trump yours" so beating the shit out of someone becomes strangely acceptable in people's minds.

Whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 29/10/2019 10:19

but it's the truth. If the truth is shouted down then this world truly is fucked.

Oh of course. A man has the answers to all the ills of the world. Hmm
Case in point.

SerafinaPekkola · 29/10/2019 10:20

“ I also pointed out that attempts by men to create similar advocacy groups are met by derision and hostility”
Really? Are you sure that isn’t because these groups tend to expect women to do the work- for example, expecting women to let men into woman only refuges, rather than setting up men only ones?

Whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 29/10/2019 10:29

What I am trying to say is that Life doesn't have to be men vs women. It should be about us all working together to make things better.

Haha! Of course the privileged ones at the front of the queue can say this. Men who don't respect the need for women's activism as more pertinent than men's (based on the pre-existing level of inequality) are part of the problem. I am sick of the chorus of poor men while women are being raped and killed at the hands of the very people who think they themselves deserve more rights.

SerafinaPekkola · 29/10/2019 10:33

“ It should be about us all working together to make things better.”

Yep. Fantastic. When are you going to start?

Dervel · 29/10/2019 10:39

@Rockluvvindad do you think I’m onto something re: how we raise little boys and in particular the spanking/corporal punishment angle? I mean it’s a place to start if nothing else.

Well being a bloke myself I have to disagree I have the testosterone and have always been philosophically opposed to the initiation of the use of force, and yes I’ve been assaulted too in the past, in fact someone tried to stab me once, but I’m not sure a lack of policing feminist discourse was the root cause of that.

MrsSnippyPants · 29/10/2019 10:53

That said, there is a growing body of evidence that female on female violence is increasing

Well if men are allowed to say they are women, and are recorded as such, there is one obvious contribution.

OneTerrificMouse · 29/10/2019 11:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SerafinaPekkola · 29/10/2019 11:19

So go on, men on here. What are you going to do about the problem of male violence? Or violence, as I like to call it...

Dervel · 29/10/2019 11:28

@SerafinaPekkola basically cross my fingers and hope it doesn’t kill me or my son. Beyond that advocate for peaceful parenting as I outlined up thread.

OneTerrificMouse · 29/10/2019 12:46

What women do v's what men do.

'what about the men'  -any tips for how to respond?
BertrandRussell · 29/10/2019 13:28

There is sooooo much that men could do. They just don’t want to.

Rockluvvindad · 29/10/2019 14:24

@OneTerrificMouse Wow ! Trauma shaming. How empowering. Get you sticking it to the man. Do you even hear the double standard in your words ? Probably not, because of all the hot piss swirling round inside your head. See, I can do personal attacks too, rather than discuss something rationally.

Or perhaps many of these females aren't even females? I don't know. But I'm guessing that most of the young women rolling around on the floor pissed out of their heads whilst trying to pull another young woman's hair out might possibly be biological women ? Female violence on females isn't something that suddenly started happening when men started transitioning to women.

@Dervel I'm not sure what the answer is. One thing is for sure, the current method doesn't seem to be reducing levels of violence so maybe timeouts and naughty steps aren't the answer. I remember one little angel running round my legs on the school run pretending to stab me and making a gun with his fingers shouting headshot as he pointed at other parents and kids. He was about 7 and had been playing call of duty. Maybe Mary Whitehouse had a point ?

For every violent arse, there are multiple good men trying to teach their kids how to behave, setting a good example, coaching kids sports or working in children's activities such as scouting, Army Cadets etc... Men are already doing things, but without society wanting to, there is not much more they can do alone.

The thing we should be doing is locking up perpetrators for a long time. I have several police officers in my family and every one has first hand experienced of being assaulted by a woman who they were trying to protect from a violent partner. Charges are rarely pressed by the woman against the perpetrator so it continues.

One thing which doesn't work is to assume that all men are violent and treat them as a group with that characteristic.

@BertrandRussell What else could men do ? Serious question. Since the parenting methods of the day don't seem to be bringing up men who are unwilling to be decent people and not commit acts of violence, and castration doesn't seem to work according to Oneterrificmouse ( since trans women are effectively castrated and still seem to be committing the woman on woman violence apparently ). We don't live in a society where vigilantism is acceptable. If it were, maybe men could police the actions of other men like in the wold west. Maybe there would be all out war between factions of men. Who knows ? Our society creates laws which determine how we can act without expecting to be arrested. It decides on punishments for those who are prosecuted for violent behaviour. Maybe society in general needs to accept that when there is little to no fear of consequences, Lord of the Flies becomes the norm. All I can do for my part is to try and educate my kids to be alert to the dangers they face whilst trying to set a good example. That's all any INDIVIDUAL can do. Will I intervene to stop young men fighting these days ? Hell no. My life means more to me than that, for my kids sake, if not my own.

Would I step in to prevent a man threatening a woman ? Maybe and I have in the past. I was younger, less cynical and probably stupid(er). He probably beat the shit out of her when they got home anyway since she stayed in a relationship with him afterwards despite me offering to call the police.

@MrsSnippyPants I do agree, and it is a fine example of how crazy the world is right now. But we have to ask ourselves how we let it get this way ?

My replies are too long, so I am going to respectfully step out of the dialogue right now. It wasn't my intention to derail the discussion and the OP's question.

Dervel · 29/10/2019 14:45

@Rockluvvindad honestly I think your comments to OneTerrificMouse were uncalled for, and I’d apologise if I were you. Violence is actually over the long term is reducing, so it’s not all quite so bleak as all that. That said an analysis into violence and in particular Male violence is worth analysis. It’s not irrational for feminists to be focused on vawg.

BertrandRussell · 29/10/2019 14:57

I haven’t posted my List for a while..
“For anyone asking what men can do- here followeth The List.

  1. Take full responsibility for their fair share of domestic work and childcare.
  2. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
  3. Stop using prostitutes.
  4. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel, board or committee they are on at least represents the sex balance of the organization - if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
  5. Stop watching porn.
  6. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.
  7. Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed.
  8. Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men. And that they are the man their children will learn about relationships from.
9) Make sure that they acknowledge, and let their children see them acknowledge, the contribution their wife or partner makes to the family. This is particularly important when she is a SAHP.

(7 is not entirely serious)
(The list is getting longer-9 is new.)“

Creepster · 29/10/2019 17:15

Are men as a class responsible for most violent acts? Without question yes. Are all men violent? Of course not.

What is the solution? Not entirely sure, and I’m not confident any human culture has cracked that one so far

Are we expected to believe that it never crossed your mind that men could stop glorifying violence? They have that power.
There are cultures that have cracked that one, but I do not think you would like how they did it.

OneTerrificMouse · 29/10/2019 17:36

My replies are too long, so I am going to respectfully step out of the dialogue right now. It wasn't my intention to derail the discussion and the OP's question.

Of course it was! Otherwise you wouldn't have derailed the discussion to focus on men.

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